Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[Hidden_One]

Agreed.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

This thread is starting to read like a Pharisaical argument rather than Christian apologetics.

The thread is misleading and it needed to be addressed.

I believe that it has been addressed, but I don’t understand your point.

What do you mean?

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Pope said Luther’s phrase was ture if… [his clarifications follow]
He did not say Luther’s interpretation of the phrase is true…

“St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).” says the Pope

If faith works thought love - faith is not alone - it has love
St Paul says if we have all faith but not love/charity we are nothing
He says love/charity is greater than faith hence St James says we are not justified by faith alone

“Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled.” says the Pope.

Paul makes distinctions between works of the old Law without grace and works of the new law under grace.

“And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ.” says the Pope

No charity (good works) and we do not fulfil communion with Christ.

"Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone." says the Pope

Ti 3:8 It is a faithful saying. And these things I will have thee affirm constantly, that **they who believe in God **may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Ti 3:14 And let our men also learn to excel in good works for necessary uses: that they be not unfruitful.

And if we don’t excel in good works and become an unfruitufl tree?

Paul, James and Benedict teach the same thing.

I think Reformed Christians would agree with your understanding with the word “if”. There is no dispute in regards to a manifestation of changed life reflective of charity and love. I think 1 John also testifies to a change with chariity and love. I’m not sure if I follow why some Catholics think the word “if” changes what Pope Benedict taught. It is consistent with Reformed theology that those who have been justified will be transformed by the grace of God, increasing in charity and love.

 

[KathleenGee]

Putting my two cents in, we are saved by faith alone…in Jesus Christ…summed in the Nicene Creed, …And Jesus said we will be judged by the little things…how did we serve Him in the poor, imprisoned, sick…"

I took a course on Ecumenism with a bishop who was on that council at Vatican II. Corruption and scruples, and people no longer wanting to follow an authority higher than themselves or their own way of looking at things…

The saints always spoke it is Jesus alone Who saves…but likewise, we must be willing to die to ourselves and let the new life of Christ seed in our souls.

 

[EphelDuath]

It is not faith that saves. It is the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Christ.

 

[JonNC]

Putting my two cents in, we are saved by faith alone…in Jesus Christ…summed in the Nicene Creed, …And Jesus said we will be judged by the little things…how did we serve Him in the poor, imprisoned, sick…"

I took a course on Ecumenism with a bishop who was on that council at Vatican II. Corruption and scruples, and people no longer wanting to follow an authority higher than themselves or their own way of looking at things…

The saints always spoke it is Jesus alone Who saves…but likewise, we must be willing to die to ourselves and let the new life of Christ seed in our souls.

EphelDuath:
It is not faith that saves. It is the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Christ

Put these two together and I think one has the understanding of the JDDJ, and frankly, the Pope’s comment. We are indeed justified by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. But faith cannot ever be alone, as a true, living, active faith must also have and show love for our fellow man. If Christ prepares us for good works and we choose not to respond, can we really say our faith is a living, and not a dead faith?

Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

Putting my two cents in, we are saved by faith alone…in Jesus Christ…summed in the Nicene Creed, …And Jesus said we will be judged by the little things…how did we serve Him in the poor, imprisoned, sick…"

I took a course on Ecumenism with a bishop who was on that council at Vatican II. Corruption and scruples, and people no longer wanting to follow an authority higher than themselves or their own way of looking at things…

The saints always spoke it is Jesus alone Who saves…but likewise, we must be willing to die to ourselves and let the new life of Christ seed in our souls.

I agree with your two cents. Therefore, faith alone is true according to the way Pope Benedict XVI understood faith alone to be true. I have no issues on how Popel Benedict XVI frames his understanding of faith alone, in partial confirmation with Martin Luther’s belief in faith alone. What I struggle with is the issue on how the Catholic Faith cannot change as one of the claims of the Catholic Church. Yet, if you read with Pope Benedict taught about Martin Luther on faith alone, and you compare with Pope Leo’s view of Luther, and togehter with the Council of Trent… I would say that the Catholic Church does change… and for the better.

 

[EphelDuath]

The faith of the Catholic Church established by the Lord Christ does not change. It teaches the same dogma that was taught in the first century. Your interpretation of the facts is incorrect.

 

[2nd_Adam]

It is not faith that saves. It is the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Christ.

Agreed, faith is the instrument that we receive the grace of God merited by Jesus Christ through His perfect life, sacrifical death, and the ressurecton… proving that God was satisfied with the perfect work of Christ on behalf of sinners who believe (faith). We are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith, or possibly through the instrument of faith alone. The kind of faith that saves is never alone, because saving faith changes us to the image of His Son (progressively over a lifetime through the Spirit).

 

[2nd_Adam]

Put these two together and I think one has the understanding of the JDDJ, and frankly, the Pope’s comment. We are indeed justified by grace alone through faith in Christ alone. But faith cannot ever be alone, as a true, living, active faith must also have and show love for our fellow man. If Christ prepares us for good works and we choose not to respond, can we really say our faith is a living, and not a dead faith?

Jon

You see, Protestants and Catholics are more like minded in unity than many of us think.

 

[rinnie]

It is not faith that saves. It is the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Christ.

You are spot on here. Without Grace faith could not be possible. And without faith working together with the Grace of God good works could not be possible.

There is not faith alone, or good works alone. Alone is never in the bible. Its a package deal. If it were just faith it would be so easy. But its using that faith and putting it to good use that counts.

Now if you said grace alone, then well, I may have to give it to you. Because all good things come from Grace thats for sure.

 

[JonNC]

You see, Protestants and Catholics are more like minded in unity than many of us think.

If we all keep in mind that properly understood, Luther’s “Faith Alone” never discounts the importance of good works, and that properly understood, Catholic “Faith and Works” is not semi-pelagianism, or a belief that one can work his way to heaven, then ISTM we have a solid common ground from which to discuss.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

If we all keep in mind that properly understood, Luther’s “Faith Alone” never discounts the importance of good works, and that properly understood, Catholic “Faith and Works” is not semi-pelagianism, or a belief that one can work his way to heaven, then ISTM we have a solid common ground from which to discuss.

Jon

Hi Jon:wave: I think that its the word ALONE that gets everyone fighting. If Luther would have just said faith without alone it would have been fine. But its the faith alone that causes everyone to go Crazy!

 

[2nd_Adam]

The faith of the Catholic Church established by the Lord Christ does not change. It teaches the same dogma that was taught in the first century. Your interpretation of the facts is incorrect.

How do you reconcile your post with the Council of Trent, writings of Pope Leo in regards to Martin Luther and the teaching of justification and agreement with Luther by Pope Benedict? It would be academically dishonest if you think there is no change in regards to faith alone and Martin Luther from the 16th century to the 21st century. Heck, I just read the Joint Declaration between some Lutheran Churches and the Catholic Church. The Joint Declaration said the anathemas (condemnation) of the Council of Trent no longer applies to those Lutheran Churches who are part of that Joint Declaration. That is a very significant change.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon:wave: I think that its the word ALONE that gets everyone fighting. If Luther would have just said faith without alone it would have been fine. But its the faith alone that causes everyone to go Crazy!

Hi rinnie. How are you?
We drive you crazy with Faith ALONE. You drive us crazy with Faith AND WORKS. All you hear from us is the “Alone”, and all we hear from you is the"and works". It is a shame we don’t hear (and see) the Faith part more in each other.
Would we not do better by saying Grace alone through Faith in Christ alone ? Sure, there are still differences, but we’d stop driving each other crazy.

Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hi Jon:wave: I think that its the word ALONE that gets everyone fighting. If Luther would have just said faith without alone it would have been fine. But its the faith alone that causes everyone to go Crazy!

The word alone was needed and the esential component of the Protestant Reformation.

 

[rinnie]

The word alone was needed and the esential component of the Protestant Reformation.

Not to me, The word alone should have never been added and the Protestant Reformation should have never came about and we should all be ONE Faith, ONE CHurch the Way Jesus wanted it.

 

[JonNC]

The word alone was needed and the esential component of the Protestant Reformation.

It was then, as some were practicing, probably outside of Catholic teaching, a form of semi-pelagianism. Now, I don’t mind saying Grace Alone through faith in Christ alone

Jon

 

[EphelDuath]

The word alone was needed and the esential component of the Protestant Reformation.

Hence why Lutheranism is incompatible with the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved. Source]

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic Church needs all our separated brethren to be one. To be able to worship together, pray together, serve one another.

The Church never stopped the practice of indulgences…and it is all about a play of words at this point for some…

Thing is the Church has always preached that our salvation is found alone in Jesus Christ…and we in turn must die to self and live in the life of Jesus Christ, to pray and do penance and avoid sin…to be truly brothers and sisters in the Lord.

Wasn’t it Martin Luther who said if you sin, sin lustily…oh, I have read a number of things attributed to Luther…