Pope Benedict XVI - "faith alone is true"!

[2nd_Adam]

It is certainly a step towards reconciliation.

Jon

I think you are clouding the issue of the heart of the Reformation. What is the chief article in which the church stands and falls? And do you agree with Luther’s conclusion on the Chief Article in which a church stands or falls?

 

[JonNC]

I think you are clouding the issue of the heart of the Reformation. What is the chief article in which the church stands and falls? And do you agree with Luther’s conclusion on the Chief Article in which a church stands or falls?

Yes I do. It stands and falls on the doctrine of justification. Check my profile and you will see I remain Lutheran. There is no clouding here. The JDDJ (and Pope Benedict’s comments) do not completely close Lutheran differences with our Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ, but certainly is a step towards closure.

For me, the JDDJ is an undeniably Lutheran document, and it is clearly a Catholic document, as well, *as far as it goes *(my own LCMS disagrees, to its detriment, I think). “As far as it goes”, meaning, it doesn’t take us all the way there. Pray the Holy Spirit guides us all to reconciliation.

Jon

 

[PJM]

Pope Benedict XVI - “faith alone is true”!

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Originally Posted by JohnnyBeth
It is implicitly stated throughout Scripture, “faith alone”

Friends, I hope you don’t object to me adding a few additional comments

When the Bible speaks of “faith” it is always from the position of Faith being necessary to know God ans enter into a personal relationship with Him. BUT it is never intended to be understood as “Faith alone.” John 3:5. Mt. 19:16, James Chapter two are all examples that support this thesis. And there are more than just these. "If you wish to come after me, take up YOUR CROSS and follow me, and John:20:21-23 also comes to mind. [PJM]

I find it amazing that bible christians are permitted the latitude to derive doctrine on implications, but when Catholics claim that the perpetual virginity of Mary is implied in scirpture, we are “reading our traditions into the text”.

Originally Posted by JohnnyBeth
apart form works, which is justification before God. How do you believe the OT saints were saved?

By grace, through faith, just as we are.

I would add to this what is implied, that WORKS of Obedience [Mt. 19:16,] and Charity [Mt. 19:19] are essential as explained in James Chapter two.

Originally Posted by JohnnyBeth
What are the oral traditions you speak of that were handed down and not written in Scripture?

That the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth, and that the Bible was created to be profitable in the task of instruction, which task was given to people (not books).

Here are a few more: Making the sign of the Cross, blessing oneself with Holy Water, the Crucifix [you use just the cross], genfulections and kneeling as a sign of Worship.

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“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.” (1 Cor. 11:2)

Sure hope I was of some assistance?

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[2nd_Adam]

Pope Benedict XVI - “faith alone is true”!

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Pat

Thanks Pat for agreeing with Pope Benedict on the truth of faith alone!

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I think you are clouding the issue of the heart of the Reformation. What is the chief article in which the church stands and falls? And do you agree with Luther’s conclusion on the Chief Article in which a church stands or falls?

Thanks Pat for agreeing with Pope Benedict on the truth of faith alone!

Color me dense, 2nd Adam, but on one hand you say I’m clouding the issue of justification by agreeing with the JDDJ, and on the other you are thanking Pat for agreeing with Benedict on “Faith Alone”. All of a sudden, I’m confused as to whether or not you are happy or in agreement with the slowly increasing common ground on justification between Catholics and (at least) Lutherans.

Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

Color me dense, 2nd Adam, but on one hand you say I’m clouding the issue of justification by agreeing with the JDDJ, and on the other you are thanking Pat for agreeing with Benedict on “Faith Alone”. All of a sudden, I’m confused as to whether or not you are happy or in agreement with the slowly increasing common ground on justification between Catholics and (at least) Lutherans.

Jon

I did a quick read on JDDJ. I don’t think either side compromised their mutually exclusive positions on justification. They only removed the condemnation and anathemas associated with Trent and the Lutheran curses, correct?

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5792821]Thanks Pat for agreeing with Pope Benedict on the truth of faith alone!

Hi Adam,

You’re not the first Adam tom be wrong

I’m content to let The Devine and Perfect Justice and Fairness of God judge you my friend.

I can only assist those seeking assistance:shrug:

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[JonNC]

I did a quick read on JDDJ. I don’t think either side compromised their mutually exclusive positions on justification. They only removed the condemnation and anathemas associated with Trent and the Lutheran curses, correct?

If one reads chapters 1- about 14, one senses not a compromise, but instead a common understanding, on the things covered by the declaration, which is not all emcompassing by any stretch. The mutual condemnations removed relate only to those common understandings articulated in the document.
This is not to understate the historic importance of what was agreed to.

Jon

 

[ccolley2]

Context my friend! The entire Bible is the proper context of biblical doctrine. Just admit it, Protestants have better biblical theology than Catholics since the Bible is not sufficent revelation for the Catholic. If you want to prove that the Catholic Faith is the One True Faith, you will need to appeal to extra-biblical revelation. Your only hope is apostolic succession. However, if you debate biblical doctrine within Scirpture alone, you will always lose the debate and will be on the short end of a biblical debate. But, I admire your passion… iron sharpening iron, right? The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

Your Quote:The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

EXACTLY! Because Sacred Scripture is not complete without Sacred Tradition. That is what the early christian church believed. They weren’t BIBLE worshipers…they “PREACHED” the Gospel…Christ said “go out to all the world and PREACH the good news, baptizing in the Name of the Father, and Of the Son and Of the Holy spirit.”

He didn’t say, "Go out to all the world and give everybody a bible and let them read it and then have them repent and then …etc, etc…

Protestants don’t have biblical theology…the only “theology” you have is your own interpretation. Which is fallible.

Did Paul believe in Biblical Revelation alone???
2Thess1:15 “…so then, brethren, hold fast to the traditions which you were taught by us either by word of Mouth or by letter.”
CC

 

[guanophore]

I did a quick read on JDDJ. I don’t think either side compromised their mutually exclusive positions on justification. They only removed the condemnation and anathemas associated with Trent and the Lutheran curses, correct?

Maybe you need to read a little slower, or learn more about the positions?

The purpose of the document is that they are not mutually exclusive.

The reasont the condemnations and anathemas were lifted is because both sides recognized they were in agreement.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Your Quote:The Catholic Faith is not based on biblical revelation as being sufficient and complete.

EXACTLY! Because Sacred Scripture is not complete without Sacred Tradition. That is what the early christian church believed. They weren’t BIBLE worshipers…**they “PREACHED” the Gospel…**Christ said “go out to all the world and PREACH the good news, baptizing in the Name of the Father, and Of the Son and Of the Holy spirit.”

He didn’t say, "Go out to all the world and give everybody a bible and let them read it and then have them repent and then …etc, etc…

Protestants don’t have biblical theology…the only “theology” you have is your own interpretation. Which is fallible.

Did Paul believe in Biblical Revelation alone???
2Thess1:15 “…so then, brethren, hold fast to the traditions which you were taught by us either by word of Mouth or by letter.”
CC

That could be the center of our division between Catholic Christians and Protestant Chrsitians. It is not really about sola scriptura. It is about the good news of God. What is the gospel that we proclaim to the world and ourselves? Do we historic confessional Protestants proclaim a different gospel than Orthodox Catholics do? What is the gospel of grace which saves and transforms sinners? Please proclaim it to me and let’s see if we share the same gospel proclamation.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Maybe you need to read a little slower, or learn more about the positions?

The purpose of the document is that they are not mutually exclusive.

The reasont the condemnations and anathemas were lifted is because both sides recognized they were in agreement.

I read it close enough. There is not an agreement on the essential differences of justification by faith.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I read it close enough. There is not an agreement on the essential differences of justification by faith.

Catholics take the biblical view.

James 2
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Matt 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

 

[guanophore]

That could be the center of our division between Catholic Christians and Protestant Chrsitians.

Yes, I think you are correct. I think this is a more serious dividing factor than the issue of justification, which history reveals was really about a miscommunication of the doctrine.

 It is not really about sola scriptura.  It is about the good news of God.  What is the gospel that we proclaim to the world and ourselves?

Yes, but the fact that the gospel proclaimed is truncated is wholly resulting from the erroneous doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Do we historic confessional Protestants proclaim a different gospel than Orthodox Catholics do?

Definitely, and different from all those who have retained the ancient Apostolic Teaching.

What is the gospel of grace which saves and transforms sinners? Please proclaim it to me and let’s see if we share the same gospel proclamation.

Definitely our evangelical brethren have retained important elements. Our Pope has proclaimed it, but it seems that you enjoy reading only part of it, just as you do the Scriptures.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Catholics take the biblical view.

James 2
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Matt 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

I think we are discussing the Joint Declaration as compared to scripture.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Do we historic confessional Protestants proclaim a different gospel than Orthodox Catholics do?

Yes, I think you are correct. I think this is a more serious dividing factor than the issue of justification, which history reveals was really about a miscommunication of the doctrine.

Yes, but the fact that the gospel proclaimed is truncated is wholly resulting from the erroneous doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Definitely, and different from all those who have retained the ancient Apostolic Teaching.

Definitely our evangelical brethren have retained important elements. Our Pope has proclaimed it, but it seems that you enjoy reading only part of it, just as you do the Scriptures.

Do you believe the gospel proclamation defined within confessional Protestants to be an apostate gospel under the curse of Paul in Galatians 1? I did request that you proclaim the gospel to me, to see where we differ. I almost never get a Catholic to respond to my request to proclaim the gospel, simply because Catholics do not really know the gospel to which to proclaim.

 

[guanophore]

I read it close enough. There is not an agreement on the essential differences of justification by faith.

Pope Benedict has not said anything different, therefore, the opening of a thread and your attempts to promote that he has are somewhat disingenuious, don’t you think?

You have spent this whole thread trying to promote your misconceptions. You have left out Benedict’s “if” from the very beginning!

 

[guanophore]

I think we are discussing the Joint Declaration as compared to scripture.

No, actually, we were discussing the JD as compared to your PERCEPTIONS of scripture, which significantly depart from what the Apostles believed and taugth.

 

[guanophore]

Do you believe the gospel proclamation defined within confessional Protestants to be an apostate gospel under the curse of Paul in Galatians 1?

No. Modern protestants cannot qualify to be called apostates. Apostates are those who embraced the Apostolic Faith then willfully and knowingly departed from it. These include only the original Reformers.

Modern day members of the Reformed traditions, though they embrace heretical doctrines created by apostates, do so out of ignorance. They never knew or received the Truth. Belieiving what they have been given is the Truth, they are most zealous for their faith.
They stand in the shadow of Apollos.

  I did request that you proclaim the gospel to me,  to see where we differ.

I referred you to the JD. You noted that we differ. What more is there for me to say?

I almost never get a Catholic to respond to my request to proclaim the gospel, simply because Catholics do not really know the gospel to which to proclaim.

We understand “the gospel” differently. Evangelicals understand the gospel to be the truncated message that is given to people to get them “saved”. Catholic understand the Gospel as a way of life to be embraced and in which one must persevere until the end. It includes ALL that Jesus did and taught, and ALL that was handed down to us from the Apostles. We do not excise out parts of the message like you do, and make as if that is the full message.

not only that, we understand salvation differently, so for us, the Good News of Salvation is not something that happens at one point in time, for all time, but a daily activity of working out what is working in us.

So, now that you have failed in the purpose of your thread?

 

[2nd_Adam]

No. Modern protestants cannot qualify to be called apostates. Apostates are those who embraced the Apostolic Faith then willfully and knowingly departed from it. These include only the original Reformers.

Modern day members of the Reformed traditions, though they embrace heretical doctrines created by apostates, do so out of ignorance. They never knew or received the Truth. Belieiving what they have been given is the Truth, they are most zealous for their faith.
They stand in the shadow of Apollos.

I referred you to the JD. You noted that we differ. What more is there for me to say?

We understand “the gospel” differently. Evangelicals understand the gospel to be the truncated message that is given to people to get them “saved”. Catholic understand the Gospel as a way of life to be embraced and in which one must persevere until the end. It includes ALL that Jesus did and taught, and ALL that was handed down to us from the Apostles. We do not excise out parts of the message like you do, and make as if that is the full message.

not only that, we understand salvation differently, so for us, the Good News of Salvation is not something that happens at one point in time, for all time, but a daily activity of working out what is working in us.

So, now that you have failed in the purpose of your thread?

You have posted that I believe in a different gospel as a historic confessional Protestant. Therefore, you are required to defend the gospel according to Jude 3. Why am I under the curse of God according to Paul, since you posted that I believe in a different gospel? So you have turned up the notch to just below the boling point.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=385438

Be there to defend the truth of the gospel, if you dare. I have to warn you, my samuri sword is much more powerful than your kung fu!

Jude 1:3

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.