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bookgirl32
Guest
Fine. You believe what you believe. Please let the Pope, and the Catholic Church, believe what they believe, whether you agree with it or not.
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Jason_1977
Guest
I’m saying thats how YOUR VERSION is written. There are other versions and translations of the Bible you know. :coffeeread:
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Are you in strong opposition of the work done by Catholic leaders on ECT and ECT II?
** Evangelicals and Catholics Together and Evangelicals and Catholics Together II**
seekgod.ca/ect3.htm
seekgod.ca/ect2.htm
The ECT Statement taken from Christianity Today, December 8, 1997, pp. 35-77
EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS TOGETHER: THE GIFT OF SALVATION
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. (John 3:16-17)
We give thanks to God that in recent years many Evangelicals and Catholics, ourselves among them, have been able to express a common faith in Christ and so to acknowledge one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. We confess together one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; we confess Jesus Christ the Incarnate Son of God; we affirm the binding authority of Holy Scripture, God’s inspired Word; and we acknowledge the Apostles’ and Nicene creeds as faithful witnesses to that Word…
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bookgirl32
Guest
The Catholic Church teaches that good works done in God’s grace (meaning we are cooperating with God’s free gift of grace and COULD NOT DO IT ON OUR OWN) are a part of the living, ongoing faith that one must have to be justified, and that their absence makes that faith dead, and therefore incapable of being a saving faith. This is what the Pope is talking about when he says IF that faith includes love. The love that he says must be part of the faith in order for it to be the faith that saves is what you are calling good works.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think the Pope is addressing the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, and justification by faith alone according to the letters of Paul. I personally believe you have gone beyond the contents of the Pope’s work. It is about justification by faith according to Paul.
BENEDICT XVI
GENERAL AUDIENCE
St. Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 19 November 2008
Saint Paul (13):
The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.
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Jason_1977
Guest
verse 13 brings it to a close, but the point is to work out your own salvation in fear in trembling, as opposed to being presumptuous about salvation & being saved. WHY? Because GOD is working inside us. We may be worthy of God’s promise, but it’s being humble & not being presumptuous that keeps us honest. Therefore, work it out with fear & trembling. Not confidence & presumption. Stick around, you may learn something. :coffeeread:
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bookgirl32
Guest
No. Mosaic law in Romans is referring to the requirements that need to be met in order to be within the covenant made with Moses: circumcision would be an example. Jesus’ new covenant took the place of this covenant and lifted the requirements of Mosaic law, putting in place new requirements in order to be wihtin the New Covenant – that of being baptised in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, having faith in Christ and living that faith through love lest it not be a dead faith – hence good works done not of our own but in cooperation wtih God’s grace that we received at Baptism.
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bookgirl32
Guest
2nd Adam, if you seriously think that this one general audience (which is him speaking to the public at St. Peters) is encompassing the whole of Catholic Dogma, then you are seriously misunderstanding the faith in the first place. Taking this one address out of the context of the entire Church and reading it how you want to does not make it say what you want it to say. I’ve read it, it doesn’t say what you think it does, period. And we, as Catholics educated in our faith, would have the authority to say that over you, who by pointing out that you think that one general audience could have the effect of changing dogma (which doesn’t happen) are doign a great job of illustrating that you are NOT educated in Catholic doctrine at all.
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Jason_1977
Guest
YOU MISSED A SPOT…
The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ.
Do I REALLY need to post about James saying faith without works is dead, see how one is not saved by faith alone? etc. etc. ??? Here’s the deal. You dont want to accept it. read the 2nd half of James Chapter 2 over and over and over and over again. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. Just like a body without a head, so too, faith without works is dead. Faith without works is dead. Accept it or dont accept it, but dont accept PART of scripture. Accepting part of scripture damages your understanding of it. :coffeeread:
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I love the book of James, especially James chapter 2.
We need to both refute Charles Finney’s theology together by the light of James chapter 2 and 1 John!
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2nd_Adam
Guest
Mosaic law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Mosaic Law or Law of Moses is the law given through Moses to the Israelite people (the original Jewish people) per the Mosaic Covenant and consigned in the Torah[1][2] (or Five Books of Moses, the Pentateuch). In the Torah and the Christian Testaments, it is referred to, at times, as “the Law”; it is not, under any circumstances, to be understood or interpreted as the Law of Christ (cf. Romans 2:13; Galatians 6:2), which is completely different.
Depending on context and in widening order, Mosaic law may refer to the observance of:
The Ten Commandments, basis for the 613 Commandments
The 613 Commandments (613 Mitzvot), basis for the Biblical law
The Biblical law, the legal aspects of the Torah
The Torah, the founding texts of Judaism, first part of the Tanakh
Less commonly, Mosaic law may also refer to the observance of:
The Tanakh, the Bible used in Judaism
The Halakha, collective body of Jewish religious law, the Jewish law
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_law
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bookgirl32
Guest
See the “depending on context” part up there? and the Mosaic law “MAY refer to observance of” part? Romans is instructing the people of the differenc between the old covenant and the new, do you reject that?
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emseguin
Guest
dear 2nd Adam
SURE, we have the same prayers, and some things are the same - We believe in Christ, but we believe in 2 different Christ’s.
YOu believe in one who is not present in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, nor do you believe in the Holy Mass, and many of the other essentials, PRMerger has listed them many times to you.
SO again, you are looking to show some liberal Catholics and their views, but that is not the view of the Church.
We do not confess together, or anything together, we pray for eachother, but we are divided.
Again, we believe in a different Christ, you , a Christ that does not mean what He states in the bible with regards to the Church is the infallible guide, Apostolic Succession, The Eucharist above all, and His beautiful and pure Mother Mary.
How is this a common faith?
We are not relativists, just because Buddists say, be kind to others, do not mean we have a common faith.
Now lets see whiich Protestant article you send next, or 2 lines from Pope Benedict to look like He is on par with you.
God bless!!
Yes, I am against this, as we are not expressing a common faith in Christ.
SURE, we have the same prayers, and some things are the same - We believe in Christ, but we believe in 2 different Christ’s.
YOu believe in one who is not present in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, nor do you believe in the Holy Mass, and many of the other essentials, PRMerger has listed them many times to you.
SO again, you are looking to show some liberal Catholics and their views, but that is not the view of the Church.
We do not confess together, or anything together, we pray for eachother, but we are divided.
Again, we believe in a different Christ, you , a Christ that does not mean what He states in the bible with regards to the Church is the infallible guide, Apostolic Succession, The Eucharist above all, and His beautiful and pure Mother Mary.
How is this a common faith?
We are not relativists, just because Buddists say, be kind to others, do not mean we have a common faith.
Now lets see whiich Protestant article you send next, or 2 lines from Pope Benedict to look like He is on par with you.
God bless!!
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fhansen
Guest
The difference here is in how we’re justified. Are we justified by faith alone? No, even demons believe. Are we justified by faith working through love? Yes, and we know we’re complying with this when we can demonstrate our works of love.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 5:6
To the extent that Lutheranism and Catholicism agree on this, we agree on the basics of justification.
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 5:6
To the extent that Lutheranism and Catholicism agree on this, we agree on the basics of justification.
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Jason_1977
Guest
"We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is **not justified by works of the law **but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified.I love the book of James, especially James chapter 2.
WORKS…OF…“THE…LAW” The law of the Jews? Mosaic Law. What OTHER law could they POSSIBLY be talking about? Traffic?
(Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28). At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis.** First, we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. The opinion that was to recur systematically in history already existed in the community at Corinth. This opinion consisted in thinking that it was a question of moral law and that the Christian freedom thus consisted in the liberation from ethics. Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.**
You most definitely missed a spot. My advice to you is to kinda just say oops, I didn’t see that part…:coffeeread:
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Jason_1977
Guest
2NDADAM, what you’re doing is MAKING THE POPE APPEAR TO BE SAYING SOMETHING HE NEVER SAID. In other words, you’re taking the statement out of context, and the sick thing is that you’re consciously aware of what you’re doing. Does thou shalt not bear false witness ring any bells? You seek to discredit a man who preaches & teaches the truth?
The Holy Father said so himself that failth alone is true if it doesn’t go against acts of love & acts of charity. He’s saying that love & charity are essential, so faith alone cannot stand on it’s own two feet, & he said that without even saying it. THAT is how he said it. I dont know what your purpose is, but your purpose is not one of love & charity. It certainly isn’t one of truth.
You are spreading lies, masking the truth, and discrediting one who is preaching the Word and truth. What you are doing, in short, is evil. It serves YOUR purpose, not God’s.
The Holy Father said so himself that failth alone is true if it doesn’t go against acts of love & acts of charity. He’s saying that love & charity are essential, so faith alone cannot stand on it’s own two feet, & he said that without even saying it. THAT is how he said it. I dont know what your purpose is, but your purpose is not one of love & charity. It certainly isn’t one of truth.
You are spreading lies, masking the truth, and discrediting one who is preaching the Word and truth. What you are doing, in short, is evil. It serves YOUR purpose, not God’s.
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emseguin
Guest
Dear jason_1977
Peace of Christ to you,
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
Peace of Christ to you,
You may be right here. The Lutheran Confessions exclude works from justification,
but certainly not from sanctification.
[bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)
I think this is quite different from the reformed model, and certainly from OSAS.
I’ll let the two of you get back at it.Jon
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fhansen
Guest
I think they’re two separate, but related, issues. The Pope was emphasizing that both faith and love-and the works or acts that automatically follow from love by which we imitate Christ and* His* acts of love-perfect us/make us like Him/justify us. Lutherans believe we don’t need to be fully sanctified/perfected to gain entrance to heaven-that we’re justified by Christ’s imputed righteousness alone through our faith in Him alone.
Lutherans believe we’re saved when we first come to faith and that sanctification should follow while Catholics believe we’re saved by being sanctified.
Lutherans believe we are justified by grace alone through faith in Christ. We have no ability to save ourselves. But we do have a responsibilty to be obedient, and this includes our participation in our sanctification, doing good works, hearing the word and receiving the Eucharist and confession/Holy Absolution, all the time knowing it is by Christ’s work, and the Holy Spirit in us, that makes salvation possible.
Jon
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