Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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It’s a good quote, but I definitely think it gets overused to the point of being cliche. And while the meaning is certainly good, sometimes it gets a bit twisted and used to justify not using words. St. Francis certainly preached and used words. He wasn’t afraid to go and try to convert the Muslims. He was an evangelist and a missionary and it kinda bugs me when that quote is used to justify not evangelizing.

Just my thoughts… 😃
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It’s a good quote, but I definitely think it gets overused to the point of being cliche. And while the meaning is certainly good, sometimes it gets a bit twisted and used to justify not using words. St. Francis certainly preached and used words. He wasn’t afraid to go and try to convert the Muslims. He was an evangelist and a missionary and it kinda bugs me when that quote is used to justify not evangelizing.

Just my thoughts… 😃
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This is derailing the thread, and if you really want to discuss it, maybe we need a new thread. But I’ll just say this. I agree this quote should not be used to justify not evangelizing. But I still feel that our actions are a much better way of evangelizing than our words. Just yesterday there was a guy in my office telling me that Catholics aren’t Christians, that infant baptism is wrong, that we shouldn’t be confessing to a priest, etc. I didn’t try to correct him at all. What good would it have done? We would just end up arguing. He had his mind made up and he wasn’t going to hear anything I had to say. But if he sees me living a good life, a Christian life, that just might get through to him in a way my words never would.
 
This is derailing the thread, and if you really want to discuss it, maybe we need a new thread. But I’ll just say this. I agree this quote should not be used to justify not evangelizing. But I still feel that our actions are a much better way of evangelizing than our words. Just yesterday there was a guy in my office telling me that Catholics aren’t Christians, that infant baptism is wrong, that we shouldn’t be confessing to a priest, etc. I didn’t try to correct him at all. What good would it have done? We would just end up arguing. He had his mind made up and he wasn’t going to hear anything I had to say. But if he sees me living a good life, a Christian life, that just might get through to him in a way my words never would.
Yes, indeed. I don’t think there should be the dichotomy in the first place. We should preach with words and with actions and discern which is the best for a given situation. I was just commenting on the common interpretation that seems to put down preaching in favor of just being a good Christian. Both are needed.

But yeah, let’s not overly derail this thread 🙂
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It’s a good quote, but I definitely think it gets overused to the point of being cliche. And while the meaning is certainly good, sometimes it gets a bit twisted and used to justify not using words. St. Francis certainly preached and used words. He wasn’t afraid to go and try to convert the Muslims. He was an evangelist and a missionary and it kinda bugs me when that quote is used to justify not evangelizing.

Just my thoughts… 😃
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I think there are several points being confused.

Evangelization: To Francis evangelization did not mean proselytizing and it certainly did not mean conflict. Even when he visited the Muslims, there was no confrontation. In fact, it was recorded as a rather diplomatic visit, which got the Franciscans the custody of the Holy Land.

Preaching: Francis was a “street preacher”. His preaching was always aimed at Catholics. Clare insisted that he convert Catholics and he took her advice. Francis himself defined preaching as setting a good example. Hence the story about he and the friar who went to preach to a certain town. When they had crossed the town, the friar asked him, “Where are we going to preach?” To which Francis replied, “We just did.”

These terms do not mean the same in Franciscan tradition as they mean in the secular tradition.

Footnote: 😃

Brooklyn, the quote is not found in any of the early biographies of Francis or his writings. However, it is found in a letter than Br. Bernard wrote to St. Bonaventure when Bonaventure was writing Francis’ biography and asked for eye witnesses to help him. Br. Bernard was among the first three brothers.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Brooklyn;9250097:
You’re getting confused. Franciscans had CITH since 1209 and COTT was rarely used. It became more common after 1970. Prior to that, it COTT was use in some provinces, but was not the norm for a conventual mass, nor was it for Cistercians either. I’m saying that it was not the rule. COTT was not banned in friaries, but it was not enforced either, because it set the ordained friars apart more than necessary.

Pardon the redundancy. A priest’s hands are consecrated to consecrate and to bless. Not specifically to hold the consecrated host. That has never been a law in the Church. Some people wanted it to be, but the Church never adopted it.

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Um, no, actually it doesn’t help. This is the first time I have ever heard that Fransicans received communion in the hand from 1209 on. Again, I did a search for the history of the Franciscans, and the history of communion in the hand, but I just don’t find it anywhere that they received in the hand. I certainly don’t mean to be disrespectful, and as a Franciscan, you certainly have more knowledge than I do. But it just doesn’t seem to make sense that St. Francis would ever permit a host to be touched by any of his friars who were not ordained. Again, I point to the quote of St. Francis:

“If I were to meet at the same time a Saint from Heaven and a poor priest I would first show my respect to the priest and quickly kiss his hand, and then I would say: ‘O wait, St. Lawrence,** for the hands of this man touch the Word of Life and possess a good which far surpasses everything that is human’**.”

Why would he specifically mention the hands of a priest touching the Word of Life if he thought it was okay for everyone to touch it?

Br. JR, you’ve really got me confused.

Also, why did the sister teaching us in 1962 tell us that we must never touch a host, that only the priest can touch it? Was she wrong then? You have to understand that with formation like that in our very young years, it make some of geezers reluctant to accept CITH.
 
IFootnote: 😃

Brooklyn, the quote is not found in any of the early biographies of Francis or his writings. However, it is found in a letter than Br. Bernard wrote to St. Bonaventure when Bonaventure was writing Francis’ biography and asked for eye witnesses to help him. Br. Bernard was among the first three brothers.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
That’s got to be one of the best kept secrets ever. Why do you think everyone has the quote wrong? As a Franciscan, are you offended by that?
 
It’s a good quote, but I definitely think it gets overused to the point of being cliche. And while the meaning is certainly good, sometimes it gets a bit twisted and used to justify not using words. St. Francis certainly preached and used words. He wasn’t afraid to go and try to convert the Muslims. He was an evangelist and a missionary and it kinda bugs me when that quote is used to justify not evangelizing.

Just my thoughts… 😃
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I totally agree. Actions and words!
 
JReducation;9250183:
Um, no, actually it doesn’t help. This is the first time I have ever heard that Fransicans received communion in the hand from 1209 on. Again, I did a search for the history of the Franciscans, and the history of communion in the hand, but I just don’t find it anywhere that they received in the hand. I certainly don’t mean to be disrespectful, and as a Franciscan, you certainly have more knowledge than I do. But it just doesn’t seem to make sense that St. Francis would ever permit a host to be touched by any of his friars who were not ordained. Again, I point to the quote of St. Francis:

"If I were to meet at the same time a Saint from Heaven and a poor priest I would first show my respect to the priest and quickly kiss his hand, and then I would say: ‘O wait, St. Lawrence,** for the hands of this man touch the Word of Life and possess a good which far surpasses everything that is human’**
."

Why would he specifically mention the hands of a priest touching the Word of Life if he thought it was okay for everyone to touch it?

Br. JR, you’ve really got me confused.

Also, why did the sister teaching us in 1962 tell us that we must never touch a host, that only the priest can touch it? Was she wrong then? You have to understand that with formation like that in our very young years, it make some of geezers reluctant to accept CITH.

We have three separate things happening here. Let’s take one at a time.

The quote

The quote is out of context. The question that he was addressing was not who touched the host. The question was about the “immorality” of the priests of this place where he was at the time. He refers to the fact that they (the priests) consecrate to emphasize the respect that people should have for their priests. His issue was that instead of talking about your priests, you should show reverence toward them. If you have a real problem, go to those who can solve it, not to the internet. I’m putting that in modern terms.

We know this, because he repeats the same advice in his rule and in the admonitions to the brothers.

CITH

The Franciscans started with one priest and 11 non-clerical brothers. It was never the intent of St. Francis to found an order of priests, but a brotherhood. In this brotherhood, there were priests, but not everyone was a priest. Without anyone making it a law, the custom just developed that the priest would hand the consecrated host to the brothers. This became common practice.

In some provinces, this practice never caught on, because the brothers who formed those provinces wee not part of the original line of brothers from Assisi. Many Franciscan communities have emerged during the last 800 years. Some are closer to and others are less close to the original community in Assisi.

It COTT was not banned. It simply was not enforced by superiors. The brothers always adapted themselves to their surroundings. When they have a conventual mass, they do it their way. When they have a public mass or attend a mass by a priest who is not a brother, they follow the practices for that situation.

In other words, on this point, Franciscans were never sticklers for law. We had brothers who were acolyte who took Communion to the sick. We have few, but some who are permanent deacons. They too distributed Communion, long before CITH was allowed by the Vatican.

Sister in 1962

She was wrong, but she did not know that she was wrong. In 1962, Canon Law prohibited the laity touching the sacred host. Sister was right on that part.

Church law never limited touching the host to priests. Deacons, in some places, acolytes, in female monasteries, nuns and fraternal orders, non clerical brothers (not the same as a lay brother) and in mission countries, most missionaries, touched the host, because they distributed Communion in the absence of a priest or deacon.

The Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are deacons, priests and bishops. Sister was wrong in excluding deacons. She was wrong in excluding all of the other exceptions.

However, Sister did not know that she was wrong, because she was probably never taught about deacons or about the other exceptions. She was probably taught from Aquinas, who said that only consecrated hands could touch the host. The fact is that some people treat everything that Aquinas said as if it were infallible Church law, which is not the case. In this instance, Aquinas was wrong. The Church never adopted his position. But I can assure you that many people were taught that position. This is why I say that Sister was wrong, but did not know that she was wrong.

There were many things that were taught as absolutes that we know were never absolutes. CITH is one of them, but not the only one that was not properly explained. There was a canon about this, but no one explained to the laity or to sisters when the canon came in, why or the exceptions. Remember, sisters were not allowed to study theology or Canon Law. That’s part of their rebellion. They were often treated as “just women” or more condescending “angelic figures who needed nothing more than prayers and an apostolate.” Their theological formation was very limited or non-existent in some communities. They were well trained as teachers, nurses, doctors, etc, but not in theology or Church law.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I think it’s both a blessing and a curse that some of the most active posters here are religious.

We laity have their great example of charity and we learn so much.

But it seems like most threads about the traditional Roman Rite become a discussion of Franciscan or Dominican spirituality with all the exceptions from the “rule” they entail, none of which applied to us laity.

I wouldn’t say that if this forum wasn’t intended for the express purpose of sharing our thoughts, and I mean it in the most respectfully manner possible.
 
The quote is out of context. The question that he was addressing was not who touched the host. The question was about the “immorality” of the priests of this place where he was at the time. He refers to the fact that they (the priests) consecrate to emphasize the respect that people should have for their priests. His issue was that instead of talking about your priests, you should show reverence toward them. If you have a real problem, go to those who can solve it, not to the internet. I’m putting that in modern terms.

We know this, because he repeats the same advice in his rule and in the admonitions to the brothers.

I understand that St. Francis was not talking about how to receive communion. I put that quote forth to show St. Francis’ reverence for a priest and kissing a priest’s hands before acknowledging even a saint from heaven was because the priest’s hands touched the Body and Blood of Christ. At least that is what the quote says. So since St. Francis wasn’t doing that with his unordained friars or lay people, I just assume that would mean that those people do not touch the Body and Blood of Christ with their hands.
Sister in 1962
She was wrong, but she did not know that she was wrong. In 1962, Canon Law prohibited the laity touching the sacred host. Sister was right on that part.

Again, you’ve confused me. You say Sister was wrong, but you acknowledge that 1962 Canon Law prohibited the laity from touching the host. Am I missing something? Doesn’t the Canon Law at the time mean she was correct?
Church law never limited touching the host to priests. Deacons, in some places, acolytes, in female monasteries, nuns and fraternal orders, non clerical brothers (not the same as a lay brother) and in mission countries, most missionaries, touched the host, because they distributed Communion in the absence of a priest or deacon.
The Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are deacons, priests and bishops. Sister was wrong in excluding deacons. She was wrong in excluding all of the other exceptions.
The Church did not have deacons in 1962. It wasn’t until 1967 that Pope Paul VI implemented the permanent diaconate

We were little kids, so she was just talking to us and telling us that we should never touch the host.
However, Sister did not know that she was wrong, because she was probably never taught about deacons or about the other exceptions. She was probably taught from Aquinas, who said that only consecrated hands could touch the host. The fact is that some people treat everything that Aquinas said as if it were infallible Church law, which is not the case. In this instance, Aquinas was wrong. The Church never adopted his position. But I can assure you that many people were taught that position. This is why I say that Sister was wrong, but did not know that she was wrong.
There were many things that were taught as absolutes that we know were never absolutes. CITH is one of them, but not the only one that was not properly explained. There was a canon about this, but no one explained to the laity or to sisters when the canon came in, why or the exceptions. Remember, sisters were not allowed to study theology or Canon Law. That’s part of their rebellion. They were often treated as “just women” or more condescending “angelic figures who needed nothing more than prayers and an apostolate.” Their theological formation was very limited or non-existent in some communities. They were well trained as teachers, nurses, doctors, etc, but not in theology or Church law.
I think it’s best we don’t get into that one, at least not on this thread.
 
That’s got to be one of the best kept secrets ever. Why do you think everyone has the quote wrong? As a Franciscan, are you offended by that?
Not offended at all. Franciscans are rarely offended by these things. Our life is very simple. We pray, we play, we work, we sleep and we begin again the next day. We do not worry too much about what happens or is said unless it does damage.

In this case, there is no harm done. There are many things attributed to saints, popes, presidents and others that they never said. We can’t go after each of those trying to correct them. Most of this is not important enough.

To the Franciscan,the most important thing is the world is to follow Jesus was Francis teaches to follow him. Everything else is secondary.

In the case of Mother Teresa, that situation had to be clarified, because it was a stumbling block to her beatification. Basically, the way that she was being quoted was as if she were saying that something that the Church allows is the greatest evil in the world. That will certainly not get you beatified. Saints do not contradict the Church. They may disagree with individuals in the hierarchy, but they don’t contradict the Church and her laws. They may even dislike a law that the Church creates, such as CITH. But a saint would not call it an evil or define it as the saddest thing in the world. That’s slap in the Church’s face. Part of their holiness is their fidelity and submission to the Church. It’s hard to be faithful and submissive when things change on you. It requires truly heroic virtue.

In that case, if the misquote did any harm to St. Francis, it would bother me. This one does not. Basically, it just puts the words in the wrong person’s mouth. But it’s saying the right thing.

I do get upset when people exaggerate the story about Francis and the Muslims. That exaggeration can cause the friars in the Middle East their lives. There was never a confrontation with the sultan. Pope Benedict repeated this a short time ago. The reason the Franciscans were allowed to take control of the Holy Land was because they agreed to co-exist with the Muslims and Jews. They still do so today and are still in control of all the sacred places in the Holy Land. That’st their only mission there, to maintain the sacred sites for the good of the Church.

If the Catholic community does not learn its history and continues to expand that false story that Francis and the Sultan were at odds with each other, this can do harm to the friars. That’s not fair. That makes me truly angry. People don’t think about the harm they can do to others by saying the wrong thing. :mad:

Francis tried to convert the sultan and the sultan listened politely. There was no conflict. The sultan developed a great warmth for Francis. He even wrote about him later. Francis felt a great warmth for the sultan and his people. He felt defeated because he had not converted the sultan, but he felt elated because he had made a friend and had gained safe passage through Egypt and Jordan. The sultan referred to Francis as Sufi, which is Arabic for Holy Man.

When Francis returned to Assisi, he shared his disappointment with Clare who advised him that the Catholics needed conversion much more than the Muslims; therefore, he should remain in Catholic Europe and he took her advice.

Not everything has to be proven. I think that’s a CAF thing rather than a real life thing. When we go through formation, the formators give us lectures on all of this stuff, but we never ask them to see the original 13th century documents. It’s not important enough. If you’re taking about a point in the rule, then it’s important to see the rule. If you’re talking about something that Francis allegedly said or did, but has no impact on your life, it’s not important. Life has to be kept simple. This is the first lesson that we learn from Francis.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
The Church did not have deacons in 1962. It wasn’t until 1967 that Pope Paul VI implemented the permanent diaconate

I certainly don’t think Sister would have said that bishops could not touch the Blessed Sacrament.
The Church has always had deacons. In the Eastern Churches the permanent deacons were kept going.

In the Latin Church the permanent diaconate was lost and no one knows how or why. But there were always transitional deacons. You can’t be a priest or bishop unless you’re a deacon first.

Here is where we can’t fault the sisters for being wrong. Most transitional deacons never left the house of formation. The sisters were not exposed to them. How am I supposed to know about something that I have never seen and no one has ever taught me. I bet that none of those sisters who taught you in 1962 knew that a deacon was an Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion and that the hands of a deacon are not consecrated.

The sisters, like many other people, read that law that said that the laity could not touch the consecrated host and they applied the law to everyone who was not a priest. The bishop gets a pass, because he’s a priest. The deacons did not get a pass in people’s minds. The problem was that people were not told that deacons are not laity.

The mindset in the Church from Vatican I to Vatican II was that these things were on a need to know basis. If you had a transitional deacon, you needed to know this. If you did not have one, you didn’t need to know it so no one told you.

It was kind of goofy, but that’s the way we operated back then.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV 🙂
 
I think it’s both a blessing and a curse that some of the most active posters here are religious.

We laity have their great example of charity and we learn so much.

But it seems like most threads about the traditional Roman Rite become a discussion of Franciscan or Dominican spirituality with all the exceptions from the “rule” they entail, none of which applied to us laity.

I wouldn’t say that if this forum wasn’t intended for the express purpose of sharing our thoughts, and I mean it in the most respectfully manner possible.
It goes back to the whole “the religious affecting secular practices” thing that’s been discussed for some time. Sometimes it’s sudden, sometimes it’s gradual. But the religious have affected the secular Church since their foundation, and continue to do so.

Like I said in another thread, if the two are to be separated then can the Dominicans get a refund on the Rosary? 🙂

EDIT: Quick note on Deacons, the Church has had permanent Deacons for the last 2000 years. All priests are Deacons. The term “transitional” is an adjective used to describe a Deacon who adds the role of Priest in addition to being a Deacon.

Now we have Deacons who are not adding the role of Priest, which is the only thing that really changed.
 
The Church has always had deacons. In the Eastern Churches the permanent deacons were kept going.

In the Latin Church the permanent diaconate was lost and no one knows how or why. But there were always transitional deacons. You can’t be a priest or bishop unless you’re a deacon first.
I have been told that some religious communities in the Latin Church had deacons.
 
I have been told that some religious communities in the Latin Church had deacons.
That may be true. I don’t know. Franciscans banned them, the reason was a legal one. Deacons are clergy. If you have too many clerics, you become a clerical institute instead of a fraternal institute. Today, permission for the permanent diaconate among Franciscans is a case by case basis. There are not many.

Prior to Pope Pual VI we had none. I can see the missionary communities having them, such as Maryknoll.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
It goes back to the whole “the religious affecting secular practices” thing that’s been discussed for some time. Sometimes it’s sudden, sometimes it’s gradual. But the religious have affected the secular Church since their foundation, and continue to do so.

Like I said in another thread, if the two are to be separated then can the Dominicans get a refund on the Rosary? 🙂
FRANCISCANS:

We want our money back for the tabernacle in the sanctuary, stations of the cross, the Christmas creche, and St. Anthony street festival. 😃

CARMELITES:

Want their money back for the brown scapular, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel street festival, and the writings of Teresa and John of the Cross

JESUITS:

Want their money back for the Spiritual Exercises, Catholic education.

DAUGHTERS OF CHARITY:

Want their money back for the Miraculous Medal, American Catholic schools and American Catholic hospitals,and let’s throw in there the school lunch program that the govt later took over from them. Let’s not forget the concept of religious sisters, since there were none prior to the Daughters of Charity.

😃

Just kidding folks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
That may be true. I don’t know. Franciscans banned them, the reason was a legal one. Deacons are clergy. If you have too many clerics, you become a clerical institute instead of a fraternal institute. Today, permission for the permanent diaconate among Franciscans is a case by case basis. There are not many.

Prior to Pope Pual VI we had none. I can see the missionary communities having them, such as Maryknoll.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Wasn’t Francis a Deacon?
 
FRANCISCANS:

We want our money back for the tabernacle in the sanctuary, stations of the cross, the Christmas creche, and St. Anthony street festival. 😃

CARMELITES:

Want their money back for the brown scapular, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel street festival, and the writings of Teresa and John of the Cross

JESUITS:

Want their money back for the Spiritual Exercises, Catholic education.

DAUGHTERS OF CHARITY:

Want their money back for the Miraculous Medal, American Catholic schools and American Catholic hospitals,and let’s throw in there the school lunch program that the govt later took over from them. Let’s not forget the concept of religious sisters, since there were none prior to the Daughters of Charity.

😃

Just kidding folks.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Laity: We want our money back, literally

😃
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