Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

After a bit of research, informed minds go to a TLM if they can find one. Cuts out a lot of doubt, distraction and upset.

Wow. That’s all I can say about this sort of nonsense. If only you were informed then you would think and believe exactly like I do.

I find it funny that people still resort to this sort of disordered thought.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Some of you would have a brain meltdown if you followed me to the hospital/nursing home this Sunday to do EMHC visits.

You’re right, I would, since I think the priest should be taking Holy Communion to those people

But your compassion and love of the sick and elderly are certainly to be lauded and I should take your example and visit those who are in need of visits, as Christ commanded.

Does a 90 year old woman who has forgotten her name and where she is receive the same grace you do at your High Mass?

You are comparing apples and oranges. Taking Holy Communion to someone is not the same as a Mass.

I wouldn’t want to put myself in the driver’s seat for that judgement, I’ll leave that to someone else.

It appears you have made a judgement or you wouldn’t have made this post. Rhetorical questions contain the answer, after all.

• PAX

ETA: I forgot to include Deacons as a minister of Holy Communion to shut-ins.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Wow. That’s all I can say about this sort of nonsense. If only you were informed then you would think and believe exactly like I do.

I find it funny that people still resort to this sort of disordered thought.

Isn’t that what you implied yourself though when you said certain questions were stupid?

• PAX

 

[Melchior_1]

Isn’t that what you implied yourself though when you said certain questions were stupid?

• PAX

Fella, you need to let this go. He posted something, you didn’t like it. No need to bring it up twice now, or at least send Brother David a private message and work things out there.

 

[clem456]

You’re right, I would, since I think the priest should be taking Holy Communion to those people

But your compassion and love of the sick and elderly are certainly to be lauded and I should take your example and visit those who are in need of visits, as Christ commanded.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Taking Holy Communion to someone is not the same as a Mass.

It appears you have made a judgement or you wouldn’t have made this post. Rhetorical questions contain the answer, after all.

• PAX

Thanks for the support. The priests visit the hospitals and nursing homes one day a week, the other 6 days we have a team of about 30 EMHC that visit. There aren’t enough bodies to go around between hospitals, nursing homes, shut ins etc…

No, not making judgement, cooperating with grace as much as possible.
Thanks tho for the support.

 

[Melchior_1]

Thanks for the support. The priests visit the hospitals and nursing homes one day a week, the other 6 days we have a team of about 30 EMHC that visit. There aren’t enough bodies to go around between hospitals, nursing homes, shut ins etc…

No, not making judgement, cooperating with grace as much as possible.
Thanks tho for the support.

God bless you and the ministry you work in. God is working through you to bring holiness and happiness to those who truly need it!

 

[curlycool89]

Well, there’s only one real way to respond to some of these.

I would put it more simply.

We’ve seen a lot of funny stuff at Masses in the past 40 years. You can make excuse after excuse. But to comes down to this: this is not the way to make an offering to a god.

[citation needed]

After a bit of research, informed minds go to a TLM if they can find one. Cuts out a lot of doubt, distraction and upset.

Opinion, no citation from an academic study saying that people who do research always choose the EF. Seems to be more of a wish then what actually happens.

Of course, as someone who’s entering the seminary this fall, I can’t have done that much research, right? I must be all about gut feelings and happy-clappy stuff, because stereotyping people is fun.

Banging on about obedience doesn’t change the fact that 90% of the things that upset traditionalists are mere fashion: they needn’t be done. But they are done. The proper question is not: “Are they legal?” but "Should they be done, and why?"

And who gets to ask the questions? Who gets to give the answers?

The answer is of course Rome. Rome says we can do it, so we can do it. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

That’s another theme: “The exception being touted as the rule”.

I reply, I post this:
youtube.com/results?search_query=mass+IX

That’s what we want.

If a Catholic don’t get that that (Gregorian Chant) is better than “On Eagle’s Wings”, then there is no point in arguing further. Again, the legal argument is used:* “It is legal, so that’s enough justification for it to be done anywhere, at any time, in any place”.*

The other argument is relativism: “Guitar music can be just as reverent as chant”. So too could a mouth organ. May those who say such, suffer such, for years.

The changes made to our rites would be laughable, if I weren’t Catholic.You believe your god is in that little gold box or in that piece of bread, and you start letting lay people handle it? Smart move. Not.

Quick, someone get the opinion police :bluelite:

I wonder what he thinks about Deacons giving communion?

 

[clem456]

After a bit of research, informed minds go to a TLM if they can find one. Cuts out a lot of doubt, distraction and upset.

While I wouldn’t wish them on anybody, I know from personal experience that doubt and upset
-can be- very valuable things in faith formation.

 

[TempleServant]

Valid Catholic tradition - Francis banned Gregorian chant. Although you’ll consider this “an exception” I’m sure, it’s still a valid Catholic tradition.

Ha ha, this is actually getting kinda funny. Honestly, this forum is about as un-traditional as a kazoo! One by one, out come the old stand-bys. You’ll be quoting St. Cyril, next.

Let’s see: you’re a Roman church, making an offering to your mighty god, who let himself be killed to pay off a debt for you. So you decide to improve your rite of propitiation, thanksgiving and adoration by getting rid of the sacred language, dumping the music and letting laity in plain clothes into the sacred area, to a folk music accompaniment, to handle the sacred bread.

I invite anyone who’s actually interested in traditionalism who’re reading this thread to seek out the Latin Mass Society or Una Voce Society in your area and go to traditional Latin masses for about 3 months. See what happens. Do a bit of reading first and don’t expect it to be comprehensible immediately.

 

[Melchior_1]

Ha ha, this is actually getting kinda funny. Honestly, this forum is about as un-traditional as a kazoo! One by one, out come the old stand-bys. You’ll be quoting St. Cyril, next.

If you have a problem with the Mirror of Perfection, that’s your prerogative I guess. Personally, I wouldn’t bet against Holy Father Francis and his band of merry men and women.

Let’s see: you’re a Roman church, making an offering to your mighty god, who let himself be killed to pay off a debt for you. So you decide to improve your rite of propitiation, thanksgiving and adoration by getting rid of the sacred language, dumping the music and letting laity in plain clothes into the sacred area, to a folk music accompaniment, to handle the sacred bread.

Mendicant spirituality, my friend. You’re probably talking to the wrong guy with this, because if the form, matter, and intent are there I’d go to Mass at an outhouse. I don’t care about the building, whose giving me Communion, what the people are doing in front of me. Me & Jesus, in the most holy Sacrifice of the Alter. If it’s something heretical or invalidates the Eucharist, sure I’ll mention something. Fraternal correction? Yeah, I could mention something charitably. But I’m not going to go frothing at the mouth about it.

That’s probably a big difference between me and others. Some would stay at home if the only Mass they could go to was at an outhouse. I wouldn’t give two craps either way, it’s Mass. Form, matter, intent.

I invite anyone who’s actually interested in traditionalism who’re reading this thread to seek out the Latin Mass Society or Una Voce Society in your area and go to traditional Latin masses for about 3 months. See what happens. Do a bit of reading first and don’t expect it to be comprehensible immediately.

I did exactly what you suggested a few years ago, actually. I’ve been discerning, researching, Catholic spiritualities (as it pertains to secular orders) for six years or so now. During that time I went to FSSP parish for a few months. I also went to a Companions of the Cross parish for a few months too. An open mind and a open heart, but both didn’t call out to me.

I then started to read more about the mendicant fathers. After reading, contemplation and praying, I began going in that direction as that is what my heart longs for. And when you reject and mock Franciscan and Dominican history and traditions, you’re rejecting 700+ years of tradition brought to us by two of the greatest Saints of the Church.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I then started to read more about the mendicant fathers. After reading, contemplation and praying, I began going in that direction as that is what my heart longs for. And when you reject and mock Franciscan and Dominican history and traditions, you’re rejecting 700+ years of tradition brought to us by two of the greatest Saints of the Church.

Not only that but how can one lay a claim to traditionalism when they discount a part of tradition?

It appears to be more about nostalgia, that is the tradition of the local parishes of the recent past rather than a love of the true tradition.

 

[TempleServant]

This is actually boring. Excuse after excuse, for going from “Christus Vincit” to “Shine Jesus Shine” in a few decades. Oh, I’m sure you can find a legal precedent for just about anything.
But for all of the changes that have happened, at once, to a well-formed, ancient ritual?

Here’s another one for you: No bishop is actually saying why one should do these things. Like, why change to CITH, over COTT. How is it helping us? What’s the benefit?

Here another thing:

How many baptised Catholics, do you think actually believe all of the following in your local, non-TLM parish:

1. The final authority of the Pope;
2. Transubstantiation;
3. The special nature of the ordained and the authority of the hierarchy;
4. The sinfulness of contraception;
5. That personal confession is necessary and that sins are forgiven by it;
6. That awareness of one’s mortal sin precludes receving Communion;
7. The Immaculate Conception;
8. That Jesus was born of a virgin and is of one being with God.
9. The 4 last things;
10. That one can easily go to Hell.

If many Catholics are now closet Protestants then todays liturgical fashions might make more sense; mass is simply not as awesome to them: Jesus is their pal. So relax your standards: you’re as good as saved.

 

[clem456]

Ha ha, this is actually getting kinda funny. Honestly, this forum is about as un-traditional as a kazoo! One by one, out come the old stand-bys. You’ll be quoting St. Cyril, next.

Let’s see: you’re a Roman church, making an offering to your mighty god, who let himself be killed to pay off a debt for you. So you decide to improve your rite of propitiation, thanksgiving and adoration by getting rid of the sacred language, dumping the music and letting laity in plain clothes into the sacred area, to a folk music accompaniment, to handle the sacred bread.

I invite anyone who’s actually interested in traditionalism who’re reading this thread to seek out the Latin Mass Society or Una Voce Society in your area and go to traditional Latin masses for about 3 months. See what happens. Do a bit of reading first and don’t expect it to be comprehensible immediately.

So what is THE sacred language, music, and instruments? What voices would you like to hear? Is the death rattle of Jesus Christ acceptable to you??

I also encourage anyone interested in -the Mass- to attend a Latin Mass and participate, but run like hell from traditionalism.
Put no -ism- before your God.

 

[Melchior_1]

This is actually boring. Excuse after excuse, for going from “Christus Vincit” to “Shine Jesus Shine” in a few decades. Oh, I’m sure you can find a legal precedent for just about anything.
But for all of the changes that have happened, at once, to a well-formed, ancient ritual?

Here’s another one for you: No bishop is actually saying why one should do these things. Like, why change to CITH, over COTT. How is it helping us? What’s the benefit?

Here another thing:

How many baptised Catholics, do you think actually believe all of the following in your local, non-TLM parish:

1. The final authority of the Pope;
2. Transubstantiation;
3. The special nature of the ordained and the authority of the hierarchy;
4. The sinfulness of contraception;
5. That personal confession is necessary and that sins are forgiven by it;
6. That awareness of one’s mortal sin precludes receving Communion;
7. The Immaculate Conception;
8. That Jesus was born of a virgin and is of one being with God.

If many Catholics are now closet Protestants then todays liturgical fashions might make more sense; mass is simply not as awesome to them: Jesus is their pal. So relax.

You’re right, it is pretty boring when a self-professed “traditional Catholic” ignores several aspects of Catholic tradition. Seriously, you’re ignoring 700 years.

 

[TempleServant]

I think it’s quite sensible to ignore novelty-masquerading-as-tradition when a pick-and-mix fashion is dominant. Especially given the results.

You know, the Protestants tried the same thing: going back to the early Church. We see the results. As for the exciting new changes since the 40’s: Two words: Cranmer’s Mass.

I used to think this stuff was new and then the internet happened

 

[Melchior_1]

I think it’s quite sensible to ignore novelty-masquerading-as-tradition when a pick-and-mix fashion is dominant. Especially given the results.

You know, the Protestants tried the same thing: going back to the early Church. We see the results. As for the exciting new changes since the 40’s: Two words: Cranmer’s Mass.

I used to think this stuff was new and then the internet happened

Thus far I’ve spoken of mendicant spiritually and practices, which you’ve promptly either rejected or ignored. These aren’t new or modern inventions.

Unless you’re calling Franciscans and Dominicans Protestants. Proto-Protostants, actually, because they pre-date the reformation.

Ironically, the Tridentine was modeled after what the Franciscans were doing at the time.

 

[TempleServant]

Thus far I’ve spoken of mendicant spiritually and practices, which you’ve promptly either rejected or ignored. These aren’t new or modern inventions.

I’ve ignored your remarks about them because I’m not a mendicant and neither are all the laity. Nor are diocesan priests. It’s strange what’s happened. The laity have been deprived of beauty, solemnity, culture and pious, ancient prayers, for something made up recently, by a committee or added by ‘liturgical experts’. What’s traditional about that? This is minimalism carried too far. It’s experimentation.

Not something you’d expect in the central rite of a religion that says it is THE religion, founded by THE god, who incarnated as a man and was killed as a blood sacrifice.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Thus far I’ve spoken of mendicant spiritually and practices, which you’ve promptly either rejected or ignored. These aren’t new or modern inventions.

Indeed. But we’re not mendicants, we’re secular laity. Mendicant spirituality could and should influence, but it, too, has it’s context. It is a religious order. I am not part of a religious order, so my context is vastly different from, say, Brother JR’s.

I think one reason secular practices has traditionally been so full of outward signs is because most secular Catholics are living in the world and do not have all of the additional supports that religious have (such as a Rule, the praying of the Breviary, living in communion, etc). The religious life of the secular parish adds to that through the embellishment of ritual, which is our great support.

Also, I’d like to add that I wouldn’t attend Mass in an outhouse. I know you were using an extreme example to try to make a point, but I think it was too extreme and shows an underlying attitude that strikes those who hold to traditional Catholic practices as being part of the problem in the Church today. Our Lord deserves better than the crapper. Mass is more than just form, matter, intent. That’s what’s required for a valid consecration. Mass is more than that, or we’d simply have a quick prayer of consecration and be done with it. I find support for this view in the fact that in order to meet your obligation to attend Mass, you have to be there before the Gospel is proclaimed. Of course I am aware of extreme situations (battlefields, prisons, etc), but those are exceptions and we shouldn’t look to them to understand what a Mass is and what should be required of a Mass.

• PAX

 

[wasserfall]

Why is it that everything I say you feel so free to readily dismiss?

Sorry Brother JR. I just had the feeling that your response didn’t address the question I was asking.

I think I’ll leave this question for now and perhaps return to it later with some background material.

 

[Kevin812]

Cranmer’s Mass.

You reveal yourself here. I’ll say nothing more on that matter.

Ignore the Carmilite and Franciscan friars who have posted at your own risk. The advice they give is sterling good and it is to all of our benefit that we listen and pay heed to them.