Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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You mean Americans? Americans didn’t use Gregorian chant until 1970? I didn’t know that.
Nooooooooooo, silly. To Franciscans it was a novelty.

Even if you grew up with it in your parish, it was not what you expected to find in a Franciscan house when you entered, since it had never been done.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Well, so what if Franciscans did things differently? Is that an excuse to dump Chant in the wider Church? The mind boggles:“No Chant for you and we’re taking a sledgehammer to that altar”. It’s crazy!

It reminds me of what happened in Cambodia; a cultural clear out. Into this vacuum creeps error. If one can now handle the sacred bread, whereas previously it was banned, either our forefathers were wrong about how holy it is or we’re somehow been bumped up a notch, spiritually. A great message to the laity, which I think they’ve taken on board.

Funeral masses now tend to be instant canonisations, for example. People think EMHCs are essential to a mass. People take the host and put in their pocket for later. Etc. Are these things licit? No! But they take the message from how the mass is done that they are. They learn from how they pray.

The next step would be to do away with priests altogether, like in a Communion Service. The ultimate democratisation. Saves salaries and really emphasises mass as the Community at prayer.
 
Well, so what if Franciscans did things differently? Is that an excuse to dump Chant in the wider Church? The mind boggles:"No Chant for you and we’re taking a sledgehammer to that altar". It’s crazy!

It reminds me of what happened in Cambodia; a cultural clear out. Into this vacuum creeps error. If one can now handle the sacred bread, whereas previously it was banned, either our forefathers were wrong about how holy it is or we’re somehow been bumped up a notch, spiritually. A great message to the laity, which I think they’ve taken on board.

Funeral masses now tend to be instant canonisations, for example. People think EMHCs are essential to a mass. People take the host and put in their pocket for later. Etc. Are these things licit? No! But they take the message from how the mass is done that they are. They learn from how they pray.

The next step would be to do away with priests altogether, like in a Communion Service. The ultimate democratisation. Saves salaries and really emphasises mass as the Community at prayer.
Grab hold of yourself. You are really taking things to the extreme. Abuses have always taken place, it’s easy to reinforce your point ot view by using them in dramatic but unfounded ways. (And others could do that to your point of view also)
 
I mean, if you guys don’t want unilateral influence from religious in the secular laity then feel free to abandon the Catherine of Sienna, the Rosary, St. Pius X, St. Pius V, the Tabernacle in the middle of the sanctuary, and Tridentine Rite
Ah yes, the Tabernacle in the middle, something that self-professed traditionalists seems to enjoy spilling limitless amounts of ink over. Invented by St. Francis. Calling for a Tabernacle in the middle is acknowledging the importance of Franciscan (mendicant) spirituality in the Church.

Incidentally, the Tabernacle in a side chapel? Benedictine (monastic) tradition.
Regarding LifeTeen, unfortunately they haven’t been fully obedient. And that’s not the only problem with them. Read about what happened to their founders. It’s pretty rotten to the core.
Wait, are you judging an entire organization based on a few people? That’s fairly illogical and inconsistent. Peter denied Jesus 3 times and Paul tried to kill all the Christians. Taken to extremes, your argument can be used to say “all priests are child abusers” because of a few bad ones.
Through all the mess and discussion you are decrying, the Church stands firm on doctrine based on Jesus Christ himself, Scripture, and solid authoritative Church teaching. Things get way off track when accepted Mass forms, languages, music, (geez here I go again) are seen by other Catholics as inferior or less gracious or some other absoultely absurd thing. Who needs persecution when so-called Catholics persecute from within???
And people from both sides seem to take this positions. How can we get along in unity as the Body of Christ when there’s so many people adopt a spirit of perpetual victimhood and other BS?
  1. I definitely haven’t called you rotten to the core! I question LifeTeen’s continued existence just as I question the Legion, but I have met Legionary priests who seem like great men and I have no reason to think you aren’t a great and holy Catholic. I just disagree with your view of LifeTeen … no matter how they reform or what good they do, the problems are enough in my view to scrap it. Like gathering around the altar … I wonder why it ever got to the point where they needed to be told to stop … they should never have tried that.
Ah, now I understand your underlying ideals. You’re one of those people who thinks that if something has one bad thing then the whole project was useless and should be scrapped. Falsificationism (related to fallibilism) is what we call it in the science; if your theory predicts something and it doesn’t happen then you should throw the whole theory out and start over. Luckily nobody follows that, because otherwise we’d never have had the Copernican Revolution in science (and others, but I won’t start a debate on those).
Grab hold of yourself. You are really taking things to the extreme. Abuses have always taken place, it’s easy to reinforce your point ot view by using them in dramatic but unfounded ways. (And others could do that to your point of view also)
Yes, that’s what needs to happen.

The Church is not going to disappear tomorrow if we don’t do all these things this instant right now. Yes, there’s some issues that need to be worked out, but there’s nothing that’s full blown crisis right now. Jesus is in the drivers seat and the Pope is faithfully following. Things are going to get better in the future (unfortunately, it’s because the younger generation is much more likely to simply leave instead of sticking around and trying to remake things in their image, and it’s always unfortunate when people abandon the True Faith).

There’s no need to go full blown revolution at this moment. Take a seat, read the paper, have a cup of your favourite hot (or cold, it’s 5 o’clock somewhere ;)) beverage. We can discus this is a calm, reflective fashion.
 
Well, so what if Franciscans did things differently? Is that an excuse to dump Chant in the wider Church?
I don’t get the sense that’s what is being said. I think the objection is to what has been said. When people say that Gregorian chant is a must and there is no more sacred form of worship, that rattles anyone who is associated with Franciscans, Jesuits, Servites or Missionaries of Charity who never allowed Gregorian Chant.

If one were to say that there is a special place for Gregorian Chant, you would not get a reaction from anyone. No one denies this.
  1. I do have a problem with the Legion of Christ. The issues with the founder’s life are so awful, they shouldn’t be allowed to reform. No one will ask me, but if someone did, I’d say disband the whole Legion, help every priest find somewhere else, and ban all Legionary leadership (the highest leaders) from holding any positions of leadership in any future placement.
You’re talking about suppression. Suppression is a very serious penalty that is put on a religious institute for violating very serious points of the faith. The Legion is not guilty of such violation. They have had serious leadership problems and they need to reform their leadership. They have been given an Apostolic Administrator to help them do so. They are doing what they are being told to do. There is not legal reason to penalize them. You must remember, these are not just priests. If that were the case, you could distribute them to different dioceses. These are first and foremost, consecrated religious. They have been consecrated to follow the charism of the Legion and no other. The Church is not in the habit of suppressing religious charisms.

Even during the Jesuit suppression, it was not the entire Jesuit order. The suppression was by provinces. The Swiss and German provinces were allowed to remain. That’s where many Jesuits went until the suppression was lifted. Later, the Franciscans would prove that the claims made against the Jesuits were false and the provinces were restored, precisely because the Church sees religious charisms as gifts from the Holy Spirit.
  1. I question LifeTeen’s continued existence
Your assessment may be too harsh. I have seen wonderful Catholics come out of Life Teen. When it is correctly followed, its curriculum is very good. It has excellent resources for youth and those who work with youth.

My experience with them is very positive. We have four vocations that came to us through Life Teen. They attended a concert put on by the Franciscans of the Renewal. At the concert, the friars spoke about Francis and the faith. That did the trick for these guys. When they came home, they called us. They were from three different Life Teen groups.

What I have seen in all youth ministry is that youth ministry works when there are enough adults to oversee it and when those adults are strong in their own faith. The Franciscans of the Renewal do a lot of youth ministry and they borrow a lot from Life Teen. They have harvested more than 100 friars and sisters from those groups. If you met some of these friars, they look like thugs, even the way they dress. But they are the holiest men in town.

I wouldn’t be so hard on this movement. There is a lot of good there too. Every movement has its weaknesses. Just look at the Benedictine Order. How many times has it been renewed? The Franciscans have been renewed three times. The Augustinians lost count. The Carmelites at least once. Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity, at least once. And the same is true for older lay movements such as the Knights of Columbus, Cursillo, Charismatic Renewal, Legion of Mary and others. We’re always trying to get it right. We have to do our best and trust that God does not expect success, but great love and effort, as Bl. Mother Teresa said.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Chant is highly desirable, preferably with an organ. In the desert were are now crossing, people need these hymns, that magnificent sound, to help them connect with something great and ancient.

To drop it for guitars and poppy songs at a rite they claim is the most significant in the history of mankind is just wrong-headed. Same for introducing CITH over COTT; it makes what you’re doing seem less special.
 
Chant is highly desirable, preferably with an organ. In the desert were are now crossing, people need these hymns, that magnificent sound, to help them connect with something great and ancient.

To drop it for guitars and poppy songs at a rite they claim is the most significant in the history of mankind is just wrong-headed. Same for introducing CITH over COTT; it makes what you’re doing seem less special.
Poppy songs, I agree. It’s a wonderful name for them. I’ll have to keep that in mind, if it’s not copyrighted.

As to who needs chant and the benefits of CITH and COTT, we cannot generalize, simply because it’s not true all the time. We have very holy people who always received on the hand and never sang Gregorian chant.

This is what I was trying to explain above. What triggers a reaction from some Catholics is the generalization that what’s good for many is good for all. We know that’s not true. We have to say it the way it is. This or that is good for many people, not for all Catholics. Therefore, the alternative may be good for some Catholics. Which means that we learn to live with both options rather than critique them over and over again and that we select the one that best nourishes us, forget about everyone else. I don’t have to worry about what nourishes another person, unless it’s a dependent child. In fact, the Church frowns on such intrusion.

I believe that’s the reason that the Holy Father answered the question about COTT kneeling the way he did. He wanted to single out the Eucharist, not the posture. The posture is a tool that every Catholic understands, even if he or she does not use it. But the message about the sacredness of the Eucharist has been received.

When I look at this, I see the message, not the posture. I don’t kneel, because our constitutions clearly say that we do not kneel, because it sets the priest apart, especially when he is the subordinate and the superior is the person kneeling. It’s rattling. We would never dare ask St. Francis to kneel before any of his subordinates, which he only did when asking for forgiveness. There is a very good reason for not kneeling.

But I get the pope’s message about the sacredness of the Eucharist and it helps, because we all need to be reminded once in a while. Otherwise, even kneeling can become very routine. You can do something so much that you do it on auto pilot. These gestures are important to wake us up.

We have to let the gesture speak to us about the Eucharist. That’s what the Holy Father wants us to focus on. If kneeling helps a person preserve that reverence, he should not be deprived of it. Nor may he deprive someone of standing who does not need to kneel to express reverence. There is a canon, I can’t remember the number, that says that no one is allowed to discourage what the Church allows. It’s for this very reason, because people are different.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
You’re talking about suppression. Suppression is a very serious penalty that is put on a religious institute for violating very serious points of the faith.

Your assessment may be too harsh. I wouldn’t be so hard on this movement.
You are probably right, I may be too harsh.

But my problem is questioning the charism itself. The charism of the Legionaries (not on the books, but in reality) was the ‘charismatic personality’ (sorry for the pun) of Maciel.

Renewing the Franciscans is fine, because we are all sinners, including Franciscans, and times change, and so on. But we will never, ever doubt the fundamental holiness and beauty of the ideas and desires of St. Francis for the Church and for his brothers.

We never need doubt St. Teresa’s holiness and vision. The earliest discalced Carmelites, the first Franciscans, the first Jesuits, the first Dominicans, were correct in putting their trust in the holiness of their founders (long, long before there were official recognitions of their sanctity).

The Legionaries also had such a trust in Maciel, but it was misplaced. For the higher-ups who likely helped him cover it up or made excuses, it was malicious. The whole thing is built on a lie!

That’s more of a impersonal argument. But personally, I cannot fathom why any Legionaries would want to stay anyway. I would begging Rome to dispense my vows or find some other solution for me. Many actually have left, and a good friend of mine who was in Regnum Christi is no longer involved, and I fully understand why.

(For Lifeteen, I probably shouldn’t say more and I should learn more about them, but I think I have good grounds for skepticism, just not for judgment perhaps.)
 
But personally, I cannot fathom why any Legionaries would want to stay anyway.
A good question. Perhaps because the ideals that have been formed over time merit the organization stay intact?
(For Lifeteen, I probably shouldn’t say more and I should learn more about them, but I think I have good grounds for skepticism, just not for judgment perhaps.)
I can understand skepticism, as I mentioned earlier I had some myself at some point. If you want information, send me a PM. After nine years, I’d like to think I know a few things about the organization and the program 🙂
 
Only if we can refrain from calling other people’s opinions, “BS”. 🤷
Sorry, I meant the part about both sides perpetually playing the victim card. We can’t possibly have a conversation about something when either side just wants to wail about how they’ve been “mistreated” or “how bad they’ve had it” or how “life’s not fair”. It should be a conversation between adults, not children (and I want to emphasize that I’ve seen this on both sides).
 
Poppy songs, I agree. It’s a wonderful name for them. I’ll have to keep that in mind, if it’s not copyrighted.
I’m reminded of “The Wizard of Oz”: Poppies, poppies, poppies will put them to sleep! (hmmm, I wonder what Marx would have made of this… laugh)
What triggers a reaction from some Catholics is the generalization that what’s good for many is good for all. We know that’s not true.
I think this exact principle is what drives many traditionalists. They feel that “poppy songs” and everything else has been forced on the Church and decreed to be good for everyone. I can speak for my own diocese: there is no Mass where you can find Gregorian chant, Latin, sacred polyphonic hymns, the EF, or consistent traditional practices. What is a traditional-oriented Catholic to make of this, other than the fact that the Bishop thinks that this is good for his whole flock? (which wouldn’t be far from the truth; he has announced at Mass that all should receive standing and then remain standing – no returning to the pews and kneeling).

Just a thought to help those who don’t identify with traditional Catholicism understand where some (but by no means all) of the trad’s motivation may be coming from.
  • PAX
 
You are probably right, I may be too harsh.

But my problem is questioning the charism itself. The charism of the Legionaries (not on the books, but in reality) was the ‘charismatic personality’ (sorry for the pun) of Maciel.

Renewing the Franciscans is fine, because we are all sinners, including Franciscans,
EXCUSE ME!!!:eek:
I’m reminded of “The Wizard of Oz”: Poppies, poppies, poppies will put them to sleep! (hmmm, I wonder what Marx would have made of this… laugh)
You’re right. 👍
there is no Mass where you can find Gregorian chant, Latin, sacred polyphonic hymns,
I have to comment here that these are not easy to put together either. In the past, choirs and religious had this down to a fine science. They did not need a month of rehearsal to pull it off. Today, we’re all out of tune.
What is a traditional-oriented Catholic to make of this, other than the fact that the Bishop thinks that this is good for his whole flock? (which wouldn’t be far from the truth; he has announced at Mass that all should receive standing and then remain standing – no returning to the pews and kneeling).
I’m not sure why His Excellency would want people to go back and stand. As for receiving standing, that comes from the GIRM. That’s the norm for the USA, even though no one can be denied because he kneels. The norm in this country is to stand to receive. In that regard, we have to obey whatever the bishop says.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
As for receiving standing, that comes from the GIRM. That’s the norm for the USA, even though no one can be denied because he kneels. The norm in this country is to stand to receive. In that regard, we have to obey whatever the bishop says.
But do we have to “obey” him in this regard? Yes, the norm is standing, but the rubrics and rules and statements from the Vatican have clearly said that the faithful may receive kneeling and cannot be denied if they do kneel. If the Bishop says we are to receive standing, but we kneel to receive because of what the Vatican has decreed, are we being disobedient?

As a side note, the rector at the Cathedral hunted me down after one Mass where I received from him kneeling and told me that I was not to kneel to receive because it wasn’t safe (?) and it was a sign of spiritual pride. I was a very new Catholic at the time (2 months or so) so I just said, “yes, sir,” but I felt something wasn’t right about it. He knew my home parish and said, “I don’t know what is going on at St. Genevieve’s, but we don’t do that here at the Cathedral.”

I bring this up to point out that it is these kind of experiences that trouble Catholics who want to follow traditional practices. They happen and they happen all the time. There are many who don’t have these experiences, but please realize that many of us do, which means that we end up having to pit our local priests/Bishop against the decrees of the Holy Father and the Curia. It is a sad and frustrating experience.
  • PAX
 
But do we have to “obey” him in this regard? Yes, the norm is standing, but the rubrics and rules and statements from the Vatican have clearly said that the faithful may receive kneeling and cannot be denied if they do kneel. If the Bishop says we are to receive standing, but we kneel to receive because of what the Vatican has decreed, are we being disobedient?
Here is my logic. If they approve that the norm for the US is to stand, then it is reasonable to assume that they would also want us to comply with the bishop when he calls us to stand. Why make it the norm for the USA and then tell American Catholics, “You don’t have to comply with the bishop.” :banghead:
As a side note, the rector at the Cathedral hunted me down after one Mass where I received from him kneeling and told me that I was not to kneel to receive because it wasn’t safe (?) and it was a sign of spiritual pride.
The GIRM requires that he explain the rule to you, as I mentioned above. It says nothing about making a person feel uncomfortable. That part he added.
I bring this up to point out that it is these kind of experiences that trouble Catholics who want to follow traditional practices. They happen and they happen all the time. There are many who don’t have these experiences, but please realize that many of us do, which means that we end up having to pit our local priests/Bishop against the decrees of the Holy Father and the Curia. It is a sad and frustrating experience.
Unless the Holy See says that this is the law for the universal Church or at least for the Latin Church, your best bet is to go with what’s in the GIRM or ask the pastor what is the expectation. I’ve always wished that Rome would end the answer to any question with, “Check out what is written for your diocese or your country.” That would give people a reference point, which is what you’re saying is missing.

When that is missing, it sounds as if the bishop and the Vatican are on two different planets. That’s usually not the case. But the laity gets all confused and frustrated. Once that happens, it’s like a snowball. It only gets bigger.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Here is my logic. If they approve that the norm for the US is to stand, then it is reasonable to assume that they would also want us to comply with the bishop when he calls us to stand. Why make it the norm for the USA and then tell American Catholics, “You don’t have to comply with the bishop.” :banghead:

The GIRM requires that he explain the rule to you, as I mentioned above.
Wait a minute. I thought it was 2012… The 2011 GIRM not only doesn’t say that the norm is standing, it doesn’t ask anyone to explain any rules:

The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/roman-missal/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-4.cfm
 
Wait a minute. I thought it was 2012… The 2011 GIRM not only doesn’t say that the norm is standing, it doesn’t ask anyone to explain any rules:

The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/roman-missal/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-4.cfm
This is true, Bro. Jr. The admonition to counsel the faithful was removed in the newer GIRM. This was news all over the blogsphere, including Father Z’s blog.
 
Wait a minute. I thought it was 2012… The 2011 GIRM not only doesn’t say that the norm is standing, it doesn’t ask anyone to explain any rules:

The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/roman-missal/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-4.cfm
This is true, Bro. Jr. The admonition to counsel the faithful was removed in the newer GIRM. This was news all over the blogsphere, including Father Z’s blog.
You know what folks? That was probably edited when they came out with the revised missal this past Advent. I bet you that the bishop and rector to whom we’re referring are in the same boat as I am. We were all directed to pay close attention to the new translations and no one ever mentioned that part or all of the instructions had changed. Fr. Z stays on top of that stuff. I don’t know what kind of job the man has, but I wish I had it. He has time to read more stuff than any priest or religious that I know. I’m jealous. 😃

I have to pull out my missal and read the instructions and see what else they added or deleted. Thanks for the heads up. 👍

Fraternally.

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
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