Pope Benedicts wishes for communicants

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Christine85:
I just listened to the Podcast. The man that made the you tube video has misinterpreted the Church yes,
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Christine, I’m sorry – I misread your post and applied “you-tube video” to the second video that was mentioned, that of Card. Arinze. No wonder your comment didn’t make sense to me. :ouch:

Thanks for clarifying. My apologies.
 
TimothyH said:
The lavabo is for touching the host during consecration, when the priest calls down the Holy Spirit and the species of bread and wine are turned into the Body and Blood of Christ. The ritual purification is not for touching the host during distribution.

It has been pointed out many times on these forums that a deacon is an ordinary minister of communion. The deacon as an ordinary minister of communion is a 2000 year tradition which comes to us directly from scripture.

Does the deacon - transitional or permanent - distribute communion in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass? Does the deacon purify his fingers before he distributes? If the deacon does distribute communion in the EF and if he does not purify his fingers before he distributes, then it is clear that the lavabo is only for the consecration of the Eucharist and not it’s distribution. What about instituted acolytes? Do they distribute and do they purify their hands before?

If someone tells me that deacons and instituted acolytes purify their hands before distribution in the EF then I will stand corrected. Seriously, I will say I am sorry and do pennance of not drinking coffee for one day.

This is the same as the argument that only a priest should handle the Eucharist because only a priests hands are consecrated. The arguments for handling of the Eucharist by only consecrated or purified hands ignores altogether both scripture and the 2000 year long tradition of distribution by the diaconate.

-Tim-
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Your diocese would be blessed to have you as a deacon.
 
TimothyH said:
Does the deacon - transitional or permanent - distribute communion in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass? Does the deacon purify his fingers before he distributes? If the deacon does distribute communion in the EF and if he does not purify his fingers before he distributes, then it is clear that the lavabo is only for the consecration of the Eucharist and not it’s distribution. What about instituted acolytes? Do they distribute and do they purify their hands before?
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In some EF’s other priests help with the distribution of communion, without such purification. There are times when deacons distribute communion too, yes.
 
The rite of the Lavabo has nothing to do with the distribution of Holy Communion. It was instituted much later. It is the presider’s private preparation to offer the sacrifice.

The washing of the hands the proceeds the distribution of Holy Communion will vary between the rites and also within the rites. In the Roman Rite, it is required in the Extraordinary Form. In the Ordinary Form, there are situations when it is optional. In both the EF and OF it is only for the presider, not everyone who distributes Holy Communion.

Acolytes are not clerics in any of the 23 Catholic Churches. They are laymen. They do not have the right to distribute Holy Communion. They are extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.

The custom of using the acolyte to distribute Holy Communion began with the Mendicant Orders in the Latin Church, especially among the Carmelites, Servites and Franciscans. These orders were founded as fraternal orders. They did not distinguish between the ordained and the lay, hence the same habit and everyone was called Frater. Every friar who made solemn vows was equal. The lay friars were instituted as lectors, porters, and acolytes. In many houses, there were no ordained friars (deacons, priests or bishops). The acolyte distributed Holy Communion to the friars. In some houses, the acolytes were used to take communion to the sick in the town, especially during times of crisis such as during the times of plagues when the sick and dying were many.

Today, the Church makes different distinctions

lay or cleric

consecrated or secular

religious or laity

clergy, laity or religious

Males can be members of more than one of these groups. Women can be consecrated and lay or lay and secular.

An acolyte is always lay and male.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
Friar_David_O.Carm said:
Hate to quibble but we do have instituted acolytes in the Carmelites.

Also all who are on the path to ordination are instituted as lectors and acolytes.
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But they’re still lay. All Franciscans are acolytes. It’s automatically done as soon as you make solemn vows. But that does not make you a cleric. You’re still lay.

I think what you mean is that they are not laity. There is a difference between being a layman and being lay. Canon Law and Vita Consecrata make that difference.

Help me out here. You guys have a path to ordination? What’s that? We don’t have such a thing.

Everyone is on the path to solemn vows. Everyone goes through the same four years of philosophy and four of theology and the pastoral year. Ordination is up to the Minister Provincial and his council to decide, not up to us. We can’t even ask for that until after solemn vows and after finishing the M.Div or the M.A.

Are you like the Dominicans? They have two formation programs that are parallel. The friars who are going to be priests are in one formation program and the friars who are going to be coadjutor brothers are in another formation program.

I thought you guys were more like the Franciscan family, everyone went down the same path and the superiors decide who is called to Holy Orders and who is called to teach, etc. I remember teaching at the WTU and having White Friars in my class who were not going to ordained, but had to study theology anyway. Of course, that was back in 1980.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
TimothyH said:
The lavabo is for touching the host during consecration, when the priest calls down the Holy Spirit and the species of bread and wine are turned into the Body and Blood of Christ. The ritual purification is not for touching the host during distribution.

It has been pointed out many times on these forums that a deacon is an ordinary minister of communion. The deacon as an ordinary minister of communion is a 2000 year tradition which comes to us directly from scripture.

Does the deacon - transitional or permanent - distribute communion in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass? Does the deacon purify his fingers before he distributes? If the deacon does distribute communion in the EF and if he does not purify his fingers before he distributes, then it is clear that the lavabo is only for the consecration of the Eucharist and not it’s distribution. What about instituted acolytes? Do they distribute and do they purify their hands before?

If someone tells me that deacons and instituted acolytes purify their hands before distribution in the EF then I will stand corrected. Seriously, I will say I am sorry and do pennance of not drinking coffee for one day.

This is the same as the argument that only a priest should handle the Eucharist because only a priests hands are consecrated. The arguments for handling of the Eucharist by only consecrated or purified hands ignores altogether both scripture and the 2000 year long tradition of distribution by the diaconate.

-Tim-
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I’d hate to criticize such an amazing post, but we don’t have a lot of evidence on what exactly Deacons did in the early days and even centuries of the Church. There are a few things we know of, like from Acts they help serve the tables and helped spread the Word. But to what extent, I think it is a bit vague. I can relate what I know from what I learned about the Eastern practices, that at the time of St. John Chrysostom, presbyters were presbyters. They were elders, not priests. They do not consecrate the Eucharist, it was not part of their Holy Orders back then. Only bishops consecrate back then. Now with regards as to how Communion was distributed, we do not know. Did the presbyters help? I am not sure, I haven’t come across that yet. Do deacons? Maybe, maybe not. But I guess if presbyters distributed back then, they wouldn’t have the consecrated hands that priests have today. So same banana, I guess.
 
ringil said:
THis article attempts to put the holy Cardinal Bernadin in a negative light and that is enough to tarnish it’s reliability in my mind at least.
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It seems many believe he put himself in a negative light.
 
JReducation said:
But they’re still lay. All Franciscans are acolytes. It’s automatically done as soon as you make solemn vows. But that does not make you a cleric. You’re still lay.

I think what you mean is that they are not laity. There is a difference between being a layman and being lay. Canon Law and Vita Consecrata make that difference.
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Thanks, I was confusing laity and lay.
Help me out here. You guys have a path to ordination? What’s that? We don’t have such a thing.
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Everyone is on the path to solemn vows. Everyone goes through the same four years of philosophy and four of theology and the pastoral year. Ordination is up to the Minister Provincial and his council to decide, not up to us. We can’t even ask for that until after solemn vows and after finishing the M.Div or the M.A.
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Are you like the Dominicans? They have two formation programs that are parallel. The friars who are going to be priests are in one formation program and the friars who are going to be coadjutor brothers are in another formation program.
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Currently we have one program. All go through the M.Div., Lector is received during the second year of studies. Acolyte is received during the third year of studies. We usually make our solemn vows just before our third year of studies start (which is typically after 4 years in simple vows).

:crossrc: My solemns are coming up this Saturday! :crossrc:

We have what we call an “ordination path”. That being that when a man enters if he wishes to be ordained then he will be considered as on that path. We do have a few men who enter who have no wish to be ordained. The M.Div. has both such paths in it. Those men who are on the “ordination path” will be informed before they make solemn vows if the superior or formators see something that will make them believe that the man is not going to be ordained so that he may make an informed choice before entering into solemn vows.
I thought you guys were more like the Franciscan family, everyone went down the same path and the superiors decide who is called to Holy Orders and who is called to teach, etc. I remember teaching at the WTU and having White Friars in my class who were not going to ordained, but had to study theology anyway. Of course, that was back in 1980.
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Kind of like what you guys do.
 
Friar_David_O.Carm said:
Thanks, I was confusing laity and lay.

Currently we have one program. All go through the M.Div., Lector is received during the second year of studies. Acolyte is received during the third year of studies. We usually make our solemn vows just before our third year of studies start (which is typically after 4 years in simple vows).

:crossrc: My solemns are coming up this Saturday! :crossrc:

We have what we call an “ordination path”. That being that when a man enters if he wishes to be ordained then he will be considered as on that path. We do have a few men who enter who have no wish to be ordained. The M.Div. has both such paths in it. Those men who are on the “ordination path” will be informed before they make solemn vows if the superior or formators see something that will make them believe that the man is not going to be ordained so that he may make an informed choice before entering into solemn vows.

Kind of like what you guys do.
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Bro. David, is your minor ordination in the Latin Rite or do they get a Ruthenian Bishop to ordain you?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Bro. David, is your minor ordination in the Latin Rite or do they get a Ruthenian Bishop to ordain you?
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Lector and acolyte are not ordained ministries in any Catholic Church. They are instituted ministries. As my provincial prior is a major superior he is an ordinary so we are instituted under his authority in our house. I have received Lector.

As for ordinations. We are in discussion about them now. If my superior wishes me to be ordained in the Latin Church they must apply for a dispensation from Rome. If he does not or the dispensation is turned down then he will approach a byzantine bishop to do the ordinations and sub-deacon will be part of it (no sub-deacon if the dispensation is approved).
 
Congratulations on your solemn vows Friar David. I will say a prayer for you.

Thank you for following your religious vocation.
 
ringil said:
THis article attempts to put the holy Cardinal Bernadin in a negative light and that is enough to tarnish it’s reliability in my mind at least.
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If the article is factual then the Bishop did harm to himself in this matter and squarely put himself in the nagative light. So the real question should be is the article fully factual?.
 
Friar_David_O.Carm said:
Lector and acolyte are not ordained ministries in any Catholic Church. They are instituted ministries. As my provincial prior is a major superior he is an ordinary so we are instituted under his authority in our house. I have received Lector.

As for ordinations. We are in discussion about them now. If my superior wishes me to be ordained in the Latin Church they must apply for a dispensation from Rome. If he does not or the dispensation is turned down then he will approach a byzantine bishop to do the ordinations and sub-deacon will be part of it (no sub-deacon if the dispensation is approved).
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Despite my unworthiness, I will pray for you.
 
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