Pope: "bishops whose first instinct is to avoid conflicts...I find repulsive"

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Christus Rex:
No he is NOT Alan! He’s merely telling the person that asked is that you don’t need a cardinal at the very top to tell you the answer to this question! I agree, a child out of First Communion would be able to tell you the answer! The politicians and the bishops know the answer! You know the answer! I know the answer!

It’s pathetic how people keep on coming with the same question, we know the answer, MOVE ON!

Michael 🙂
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He is not pompous? Do you know him personally? All I have to go on this article.

From the article he was clearly characterized as joking around, and made flippant remarks that the article also debunks. Whether it is a priest’s job to deny communion to someone who is thought to be a Kerry voter or not, is an honest debate and by negatively comparing the Catholic teaching knowledge of cardinals to 7-year-olds pretty much announces to the world that Any Given Bishop may be a blithering idiot.

Merely telling, indeed. Unless you were there or personally know him, why gives you that impression? He elicited laughter, he quipped. Clearly the article’s author observed that he was clearly making a joke of those cardinals who did not agree.

That is not just an instruction, that’s a public indictment of the dignity and the competency of the entire clergy combined. How much would the enemy love to hear the leader of the Church publicly declare that his shepherds are incompetent idiots who can’t understand the simplest things.

Again, how would you like it if your boss publicly said of you and other managers who have strong concerns about a policy issue, that you were dumber than a 7-year-old? That’s not lovingly informing them. That’s an attack against the Church herself, as who would trust an institution with so many incompetent leaders?

Alan
 
Ani Ibi:
Peace is not the first civic duty, and a bishop whose only concern is not to have any problems and to gloss over as many conflicts as possible is an image I find repulsive.
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Peace is not the first civic duty?

I think peace might be important. Why has the Vatican spoken out against the war? Has Benedict spoken against the war, preferring peace to discipline?
John 14:27:
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
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Perhaps it’s OK that he has an image of bishops that repulse him. I wonder if he actually knows of any bishops whose “only concern” is not to have problems and gloss over as many conflicts as possible."

I’m not impressed by the man if this really reflects how he thinks and acts. In a commercial business, making public statements like this could leave him subject to lawsuits, but since bishops have no redress against the Vatican like business leaders have against their executives they just have to take it. I’m hoping that I am getting a distorted picture of the new pope from those eager to have the pope Prove Them Right.

[edit] Another thing, is when you make sweeping statements about the competency of the management when you first take over a job, what that really says is that the previous management was no good and you are having to clean up their messes. Never fear, folks, because SuperPope is here. Again, I’m not making any statements about the Holy Father, only against the characature of him that I’m hearing in these stories and posts.

Alan
 
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Alan:
Peace is not the first civic duty?

I think peace might be important. Why has the Vatican spoken out against the war? Has Benedict spoken against the war, preferring peace to discipline?
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The word “peace” in the interview wasn’t referring to peace as in war or peace. But rather speaking of peace as opting for a head-in-the-sand false comfort, as opposed to facing up to the difficult issues at hand.

Peace 😃
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Peace is not the first civic duty?

Alan
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As citizens of heaven, peace is not always our first civic duty. Take a lesson from Jesus in how he responded to those seeking to be wholehearted and decisive in their choice for the kingdon in the face of opposition:

Matt.11: 12 “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force.”

Luke 12: 49 “I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!”

Luke 12: 51 “Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division;”
 
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AlanFromWichita:
He is not pompous? Do you know him personally? All I have to go on this article.

From the article he was clearly characterized as joking around, and made flippant remarks that the article also debunks. Whether it is a priest’s job to deny communion to someone who is thought to be a Kerry voter or not, is an honest debate and by negatively comparing the Catholic teaching knowledge of cardinals to 7-year-olds pretty much announces to the world that Any Given Bishop may be a blithering idiot.

Merely telling, indeed. Unless you were there or personally know him, why gives you that impression? He elicited laughter, he quipped. Clearly the article’s author observed that he was clearly making a joke of those cardinals who did not agree.

That is not just an instruction, that’s a public indictment of the dignity and the competency of the entire clergy combined.

Alan
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Well, I don’t Cardinal Arinze personally but I did see him in an interview EWTN on the World Over and Raymond Arroyo asked him the same question and received the same response. He is a very amiable, jovial man who sincerely seems to think the answer to the question is obvious as it has been addressed repeatedly. If anything, his comment was an understatement. Cardinal Arinze is too kind and eloquent to stoop to name-calling: “blithering idiot”? No self-respecting Christian has need for such hostile language.

As for your point about having an honest debate Peter has spoken; the matter has been settled.
 
Alan,

Dosn’t the bible say that God would rather have us hot or cold? But if we are lukewarm , He will spit us out of His mouth?

We are actually doing a DISSERVICE to people by not fully enforcing the truth, leaving people to belive that these things must, or at least might be ok.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
He is not pompous? Do you know him personally? All I have to go on this article.

From the article he was clearly characterized as joking around, and made flippant remarks that the article also debunks. Whether it is a priest’s job to deny communion to someone who is thought to be a Kerry voter or not, is an honest debate and by negatively comparing the Catholic teaching knowledge of cardinals to 7-year-olds pretty much announces to the world that Any Given Bishop may be a blithering idiot.

Merely telling, indeed. Unless you were there or personally know him, why gives you that impression? He elicited laughter, he quipped. Clearly the article’s author observed that he was clearly making a joke of those cardinals who did not agree.

That is not just an instruction, that’s a public indictment of the dignity and the competency of the entire clergy combined. How much would the enemy love to hear the leader of the Church publicly declare that his shepherds are incompetent idiots who can’t understand the simplest things.

Again, how would you like it if your boss publicly said of you and other managers who have strong concerns about a policy issue, that you were dumber than a 7-year-old? That’s not lovingly informing them. That’s an attack against the Church herself, as who would trust an institution with so many incompetent leaders?

Alan
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Alan:

As You know, Catholicism is a Revealed Religion, which means that we don’t go around disputing the basic doctrines and dogmas of the Church. Although I would not want to go to a 7-year for a detailed explaination of Transubstantiation and why those polititions who publicly support the continued slaughter of babies in Abortion, most of those who are doing their First Communion will understand enough of the basics to understand that the politicians have to be denied access to the Eucharist until they repent of their positions.

We’re not talking about people who are struggling with alcoholism, gambling addictions, sexual addictions or even women who’ve had abortions. All of these can be handled by people admitting that they have a problem with sin and then going to CONFESSION.

When we’re talking about Politicians who are public supporters of Abortion (Remember, there are 5 Non-Negotiables) we’re talking about people who are in PUBLIC REBELLION against the Teachings and the Teaching Authority of the Church and who are acting at Cross-purposes to the mission of the Church.

I don’t think that Cardinal Arinze (who is a good, decent and compassionate man - read his curiculum vitae - He helped make LASTING peace in at least 2 conflicts in Africa) was refering to people who voted for Kerry because they failed to understand the depth of the Church’s opposition to Abortion, Fetal Stem Cell Research, Human Cloning and Same Sex Marriage.

The “Policy Disagreements” among the Bishops happened because a lot of them were afraid of confronting the Pro-Abortion politicians (who are mainly Democrat), and being accused of entering partisan politics (That’s the grounds for the complaints by Catholics for a Free Choice, Planned Parenthood and NARAL against Priest for Life and the grounds their attempts to remove Priests for Life’s IRS 501(c)(3)).

That has NOTHING to do with doctrine and whether Politicans who Publicly support Abortion are commiting Sacrilege when they receive Our Lord’s Body and Blood. It also has NOTHING to do with whether or not the decision made by the US Bishops caused more confusion and less instruction and gave the politicians no message that they needed to repent.

Do you believe that this confused message given by the USCCB, which seems to have been motivated by fear of the world as much as anything else, was the right thing to do? Or, Do you think the Bishops had so little trust in the Correctness of the Church’s message that they wouldn’t do what the 7-year old would do?

If it’s the second, do you really want people who don’t believe in the message of the Gospel or of the Church in charge of its delivery in this country? And, Are you willing to have Bishops in charge of the Church who fear man more than they fear God?

Blessed are they who act to stop the slaughter of the Innocent, Michael
 
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Rosalinda:
Well, I don’t Cardinal Arinze personally but I did see him in an interview EWTN on the World Over and Raymond Arroyo asked him the same question and received the same response. He is a very amiable, jovial man who sincerely seems to think the answer to the question is obvious as it has been addressed repeatedly. If anything, his comment was an understatement. Cardinal Arinze is too kind and eloquent to stoop to name-calling: “blithering idiot”? No self-respecting Christian has need for such hostile language.

As for your point about having an honest debate Peter has spoken; the matter has been settled.
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Well said Rosalinda. It seems that some of us want the Catholic Church to be a Democracy or to be subservient to the State. It’s a hard thing learning the Church doesn’t “Change with the Times” and that dogmas revealed 1800 years ago don’t change.

Here’s something I ran into today on the LA Times (I know, “Yech!”). I know they printed it as the normal “Hit Piece” against the Catholic Church, but if one reads carefully, one will see what happens when Bishops allow crisis to be handled by attorneys and Courts of Law, when they really should be handled pastorally by the Bishops or by Priests under their charge…

b Priest’s Son to Get a Boost in Assistance
California - July 28, 2005
By William Lobdell, Times Staff Writer
latimes.com/news/local/la-me-priestdad28jul28,1,7486195.story?coll=la-headlines-california

Most of the misery in this article comes from a situation being handled by attorneys that should have been handled by the father before he became a priest or by the Order which accepted him as a priest with NO Lawyers involved except to insure the law was being followed.

Bishops must act as Shepherds… That’s all there is too it. Bad things happen when they try to short-cut around that.

Let us fervently pray that the Bishops learn that before we all come to grief.

Blessed are they who act to save God’s Little Ones, Michael
 
You can all defend the Chruch teachings as much as you want.

I agree that your bishops have to assent.

Comparing them as mental inferiors to 7-year-olds, even in jest, sounds like it does little than to undermine the authority of all bishops. These bishops, even the dissenting ones, have dedicated their lives to the Church, and I don’t think they should be carrying on this sort of rivalry in public.

There should be no dissent. The bishops obey the pope. No discussion. No need to go on international television and impugn them in order to shame them into consent, which I guess is what they mean, when they already know they are at odds and need a little more than an insult to pull them out of it.

Again I’m basing my information completely on this article. Imagine if the CEO of a corporation went public with the claim that half of the board members were dumber than seven year olds? Would Wall Street think that serves the company well?

Plus if the situation is so bad that it’s laughable, I consider that a direct remark about the previous leadership. I’ve seen a lot of bureaucrats when they change power all of a sudden go from loving their previous boss to blaming her.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
You can all defend the Chruch teachings as much as you want.

I agree that your bishops have to assent.

Comparing them as mental inferiors to 7-year-olds, even in jest, sounds like it does little than to undermine the authority of all bishops. These bishops, even the dissenting ones, have dedicated their lives to the Church, and I don’t think they should be carrying on this sort of rivalry in public.

There should be no dissent. The bishops obey the pope. No discussion. No need to go on international television and impugn them in order to shame them into consent, which I guess is what they mean, when they already know they are at odds and need a little more than an insult to pull them out of it.

Again I’m basing my information completely on this article. Imagine if the CEO of a corporation went public with the claim that half of the board members were dumber than seven year olds? Would Wall Street think that serves the company well?

Plus if the situation is so bad that it’s laughable, I consider that a direct remark about the previous leadership. I’ve seen a lot of bureaucrats when they change power all of a sudden go from loving their previous boss to blaming her.

Alan
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Alan, he didn’t compare them to 7 year olds… He said that even children of that age could answer that question. It was a question that was posed to him… The truth hurts sometimes. These bishops may be dedicating their life to their church, but I don’t see them dedicating their lives to THE Church… To delibertly cut out this…
Apparently, however, the bishops do need a Vatican Cardinal to tell them. The US and Canadian bishops, with only a handful of exceptions, far from endorsing this requirement of the Church law, have evaded the issue or remained silent. Cardinal McCarrick of Washington, soon to retire, went so far as to withhold from the meeting of the US bishops’ conference, the pertinent section of a letter by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, (CDF) in which he said such legislators “must be refused” communion.
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Sounds that they are in lines for a bit of a tounge lashing. The Vatican has to put their foot down. My husband was just talking last night to me about how the Vatican is not saying enough.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
…Comparing them as mental inferiors to 7-year-olds, even in jest, sounds like it does little than to undermine the authority of all bishops…
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Ever hear of hyperbole. Jesus used it occasionally. What the Cardinal meant is that he shouldn’t have to keep repeating what is so clear. (“I ask you, do you really need a cardinal from the Vatican to find the answer?”)
 
Ani Ibi said:
A bishop whose only concern is not to have any problems and to gloss over as many conflicts as possible is an image I find repulsive."
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:amen:

We need bishops who will keep things in order so things don’t get so out of hand, and when there is a mess, to take out the trash. You can’t do that by being a ‘yes man’.
 
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AmyS:
Sounds that they are in lines for a bit of a tounge lashing. The Vatican has to put their foot down. My husband was just talking last night to me about how the Vatican is not saying enough.
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My point is that with today’s technology the Vatican could issue a statement to every diocese hooked up to the web instantly, and then get to the rest in short time. These kind of proclamations in public are appropriate for a “roasting” sort of ceremony where they kid each other around.

Good managers do not tongue lash their employees in front of the customers. Neither do I think the sheep should have to watch the shepherds be disciplined.

That’s my only point. No doubt there’s been slacking if they teach doctrine wrong. Gosh I can be wrong all day but if they are wrong they are in danger of the ol’ millstone-and-into-the-sea problem. No thanks. They must feel very strongly to put themselves at that risk by venturing out from the Mother Ship, so to speak.

It’s like when you fly an airplane outside of its demonstrated operating performance envelope, you become a test pilot. With these bishops, if they stray from the teaching, they had better be pretty right or they may be in for a crash!

I suppose I’d have to have seen it. Maybe it was like a bit of self-deprecating (and maybe uneasy) humor.

Alan
 
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miguel:
Ever hear of hyperbole. Jesus used it occasionally. What the Cardinal meant is that he shouldn’t have to keep repeating what is so clear. (“I ask you, do you really need a cardinal from the Vatican to find the answer?”)
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Right. He needs to tell that to those offending, not to the press. If those under his jurisdiction don’t comply, sanction them. I guess at least they’re consistent; they don’t sanction them for certain other transgressions that are well known. :rolleyes:

Alan
 
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