Pope celebrates Mass with Egyptian Patriarch

[choliks]

news.va/en/news/pope-celebrates-mass-with-egyptian-patriarch

 

[prodromos]

Who happens to be a Catholic bishop. Don’t you love misleading headlines.

 

[twf]

Why is it misleading? Concelebration reported by a Catholic news service implies, to me, all involved are Catholic bishops. From a Catholic perspective, His Beatitude is the Egyptian Patriarch. If the headline said “Pope celebrates mass with Canadian primate” I would assume it would mean the Catholic Archbishop of Quebec, not an Anglican or Orthodox bishop.

 

[twf]

I wonder though…this was a “low key” mass celebrated in a small chapel…when the head of a sister Church Sui Iuris comes to visit - the patriarch in fact who by all rights, holding the venerable see of Alexandria, should rank second after the Pope of Rome himself, I would like to see a more solemn liturgy at the high altar in St Peter’s.

 

[phil19034]

The current Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria isn’t the Coptic Pope. I read once that if the Coptic Orthodox ever come back into communion with Rome, the Pope of Alexandria would become the true Partiarch (Pope) of Alexandria.

 

[josie_L]

The current Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria isn’t the Coptic Pope. I read once that if the Coptic Orthodox ever come back into communion with Rome, the Pope of Alexandria would become the true Partiarch (Pope) of Alexandria.

I’m a little confused by this post because we are aware of the fact that there are Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox, each with their own patriarch (and I believe there is also a Greek patriarch of Alexandria).

 

[TRH1292]

I wonder if this Divine Liturgy was recorded on video.

 

[peresieh]

Was it the Coptic Catholic Divine Liturgy or a Roman Catholic mass?

 

[phil19034]

I’m a little confused by this post because we are aware of the fact that there are Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox, each with their own patriarch (and I believe there is also a Greek patriarch of Alexandria).

There are two points to this:

1. If the Coptic Orthodox come into communion with Rome, they would basicly all become Coptic Catholics. We would not continue to have two Coptic Patriarchs of Alexandria. Perhaps there would be two during a “period of unification,” but once one retires or dies, there would then only be one moving forward.
2. Unless I’m mistaken, the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch is the rightful successor of the original Patriarch of Alexandria. He is the one who is often called the Pope of Alexandria or Coptic Pope. So that line of succession would most likely be the one that would remain (same with the other Orthodox Patriarchs).

 

[SyroMalankara]

There are two points to this:

1. If the Coptic Orthodox come into communion with Rome, they would basicly all become Coptic Catholics. We would not continue to have two Coptic Patriarchs of Alexandria. Perhaps there would be two during a “period of unification,” but once one retires or dies, there would then only be one moving forward.

Why would they decidedly choose the name “Coptic Catholic” as opposed to “Coptic Orthodox”, since the “Coptic Orthodox” outnumber the “Coptic Catholics” 1000:1?

 

[josie_L]

Why would they decidedly choose the name “Coptic Catholic” as opposed to “Coptic Orthodox”, since the “Coptic Orthodox” outnumber the “Coptic Catholics” 1000:1?

Well, before the schism what were we called?

 

[Peter_J]

Why would they decidedly choose the name “Coptic Catholic” as opposed to “Coptic Orthodox”, since the “Coptic Orthodox” outnumber the “Coptic Catholics” 1000:1?

This ^^ may have been intended as a hyperbole. If not, then I guess you meant to write 100:1.

 

[Peter_J]

I’ve never been Orthodox, but I can’t help wondering how all these plans for the-Coptic-Orthodox-Church-coming-into-communion-with-Rome sound to Orthodox readers. (I imagine that if I heard e.g. Lutherans talking about “If the Roman Catholic Church becomes Lutheran, what will the Pope’s role be?” it would seem a tiny bit arrogant to me.)

:ehh:

 

[malphono]

I would imagine that the COC would be horror-struck by the prospect. One thing, among others, that I’m sure they don’t need (or want) is being pushed into the CCC with its rampant latinizations and all. I’d be horror-struck too.

 

[josie_L]

I’ve never been Orthodox, but I can’t help wondering how all these plans for the-Coptic-Orthodox-Church-coming-into-communion-with-Rome sound to Orthodox readers. (I imagine that if I heard e.g. Lutherans talking about “If the Roman Catholic Church becomes Lutheran, what will the Pope’s role be?” it would seem a tiny bit arrogant to me.)

:ehh:

Do you regard the Lutherans as being in schism with the Catholic Church (because this analogy is a little like comparing apples and oranges, i.e., the Orthodox are still very much Catholic)?

 

[dzheremi]

I’ve never been Orthodox, but I can’t help wondering how all these plans for the-Coptic-Orthodox-Church-coming-into-communion-with-Rome sound to Orthodox readers. (I imagine that if I heard e.g. Lutherans talking about “If the Roman Catholic Church becomes Lutheran, what will the Pope’s role be?” it would seem a tiny bit arrogant to me.)

:ehh:

I’ll tell you what they sound like, but only off the board, because saying so on the board would probably get me banned…

Seriously, Catholic people…seriously…enough. Stop. We have enough problems with some of our hierarchy who make statements way out of left field regarding how we should or do think about you (H.E. Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named-But-Always-Seems-To-Put-His-Foot-In-His-Mouth-Very-Publically was very quickly reminded by his brothers that this is not the way we think, after stupidly saying, among other things, that Roman Catholics and Protestants cannot go to heaven :doh2. We don’t need you confirming the worst suspicions that some people in our Church have about you. (NB: Except for some of the leaders who have had dialogues with the RCC and the newest generations of the diaspora who are often educated in RC schools, most Copts know nothing about the RCC; when I first attended liturgy, I spent a good portion of the Agape meal afterwards explaining to the very well-intentioned but obviously misinformed laity that RCs do not in fact worship St. Mary.)

Put plainly and hopefully appreciated as a series of declarative statements of fact (i.e., I am not in the arguing business when it comes to m own faith, so save it for someone else; the question was asked what Coptic Orthodox people feel, not what Roman Catholics think they can salvage or smooth over, so please consider that in any response should there be one), no Coptic person who is committed to and knowledgeable about his Orthodox faith and Church will ever become any type of Catholic anything, unless Rome changes its ways and becomes Orthodox as we recognize it. And, yes, I am saying that with full knowledge that we have people here who like to present themselves as being just that while also being in union with Rome. I’m telling you right now it doesn’t exist according to the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is most definitely the arbiter of what it means to be Coptic and Orthodox (who else would be?). No one is Orthodox in Union with Rome, and certainly no one is Coptic Orthodox in Union with Rome, and Coptic Catholics are recognized as a wound to the Church, not a bridge to anywhere that we want to go.

We love you guys - we really,* really* do (hopefully HH’s very public embrace and brotherliness toward Pope Francis is a good indication of where the heart of our Church is in desiring unity and love between Orthodox and Catholic Christians), but we will not become like you, even in an “Eastern” context (on a mass level, you have all the Coptic Catholics you’re ever going to have; individuals may make their own choices, of course, but the days of masses of Orthodox people converting to Catholicism are probably over). There is a reason why the first errant Bishop of the Copts to embrace union with Rome, Anba Athanasius of Jerusalem, later thought better of his decision and returned to Orthodoxy. We have no union of faith with you, and hence sacramental union is not a reality. As a friend from Church once put it over lunch when trying to understand exactly how we differ: “They’re Christians too, but they’re modern. Their church is a modern church. We are not modern. Our church is not a modern church.”

 

[Peter_J]

(I imagine that if I heard e.g. Lutherans talking about “If the Roman Catholic Church becomes Lutheran, what will the Pope’s role be?” it would seem a tiny bit arrogant to me.)

:ehh:

Do you regard the Lutherans as being in schism with the Catholic Church

(emphasis added)

Complete nonsequitor.

You could, of course, ask whether **Lutherans **regard themselves as being in schism with the Catholic Church.

 

[malphono]

(H.E. Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named-But-Always-Seems-To-Put-His-Foot-In-His-Mouth-Very-Publically was very quickly reminded by his brothers that this is not the way we think, after stupidly saying, among other things, that Roman Catholics and Protestants cannot go to heaven :doh2

Could that be Anba Flan … you know, the one with the big mouth who is madly in love with MP?

There is a reason why the first errant Bishop of the Copts to embrace union with Rome, Anba Athanasius of Jerusalem, later thought better of his decision and returned to Orthodoxy. We have no union of faith with you, and hence sacramental union is not a reality. As a friend from Church once put it over lunch when trying to understand exactly how we differ: “They’re Christians too, but they’re modern. Their church is a modern church. We are not modern. Our church is not a modern church.”

So, does that mean the COC wouldn’t be [post=11496214]horror struck[/post] by the prospect of being “united” with the CCC?

 

[Peter_J]

(on a mass level, you have all the Coptic Catholics you’re ever going to have; individuals may make their own choices, of course, but the days of masses of Orthodox people converting to Catholicism are probably over).

And our days of proselytizing are over … at least I hope so. Of course, we hold the door open for any Coptic Orthodox who want, of their own accord, to become Catholic (hint hint ).

 

[malphono]

And our days of proselytizing are over … at least I hope so. Of course, we hold the door open for any Coptic Orthodox who want, of their own accord, to become Catholic (hint hint ).

:bigyikes:​