"Pope" Clement of Rome

[CHESTERTONRULES]

…Wait, what? Catholics have always told me that we are justified by grace through works and faith…Just look at this (It’s a Catholic website): home.flash.net/~truth/Justification.html

So, when Clement contradicts, you claim you believe justification by grace through faith, but when no threats are presented, you claim it’s by grace through faith and works?

QUOTE]

Clement does not contradict Catholic teaching. I’ll shorten the quote so you don’t miss the key sections.

From the same letter you are referencing:

Chapter 34. Great is the Reward of Good Works with God. Joined Together in Harmony, Let Us Implore that Reward from Him.
The good servant receives the bread of his labour with confidence; the lazy and slothful cannot look his employer in the face. It is requisite, therefore, that we be prompt in the practice of well-doing; for of Him are all things. And thus He forewarns us: Behold, the Lord [comes], and His reward is before His face, to render to every man according to his work. He exhorts us, therefore, with our whole heart to attend to this, that we be not lazy or slothful in any good work.

Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts. But how, beloved, shall this be done? If our understanding be fixed by faith towards God; if we earnestly seek the things which are pleasing and acceptable to Him; if we do the things which are in harmony with His blameless will; and if we follow the way of truth, casting away from us all unrighteousness and iniquity, along with all covetousness, strife, evil practices, deceit, whispering, and evil-speaking, all hatred of God, pride and haughtiness, vain glory and ambition. For they that do such things are hateful to God; and not only they that do them, but also those that take pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:32

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

…

Works can not be added to grace. But Catholics do this. Why should I ignore the Scripture? If you add works to grace at all, it is not grace anymore.

Correct me if I’m wrong. And I would appreciate respect.

We can reject the grace of God by our actions.

Paul warned us about this:

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

[NoWings]

I wondered how long it would be before you brought up the abuse scandal. It was inevitable that you would do so.

So, you’d rather focus on the fact that I brought up the abuse scandal in a knee-jerk reactive way, even though it’s a relevant analogy to what I said (which you would’ve known had you read the entire post) rather than the entirety of the post?

Nice tunnel vision you’ve got there.

 

[NotTooSmart]

You think that my perceived lack of charity reflects on ALL Catholics on these fora and on the CHURCH ITSELF? Wow, no wonder you’re an agnostic. Your perceptions are completely unreasonable and quite immature. So every time a religious person behaves in a manner you judge to be imperfect, it is an indictment of all religions? What are you, 15 years old?

Grow up, man.

You were way out of line with that comment you made.

Why not just 'fess up and admit you were out of line instead of remaining in attack mode and getting all defensive about it.

And for the record, the sheer number of folks here who flip out and get way out of line when addressing heretical Protestants creates a disconnect in myself what with the simultaneous claims of “one true church” and all that.

 

[PaulDupre]

You were way out of line with that comment you made.

Yes, I was. I apologize.

 

[PaulDupre]

…Wait, what? Catholics have always told me that we are justified by grace through works and faith…Just look at this (It’s a Catholic website): home.flash.net/~truth/Justification.html

Is it an official Catholic Church website, or is it a website run by some Catholics expressing their opinions? There is a difference, you know.

Did you read the Catechism passage I cited? That is official Catholic teaching. If you won’t read that, then I guess you’re not interested in knowing what the CC really teaches, you just want to tell us what you think we believe.

 

[chaunceygardner]

It appears to me that what Clement is saying is both Catholic and Christian.

If I go out and do “good works”, and treat everyone fairly and with compassion, I could be considered christian in the sense that I am behaving in a “christian” manner, even though I would have no idea about Jesus. But without that knowledge and faith, am I truly Christian, a follower of Jesus? No, faith is the key. I don’t think that Clement is downgrading good works, but emphasizing that faith in the words of Jesus is what defines us as Christians.

But it is not just saying “I believe”, for there are many people who have claimed to be Christian but were totally un-Christian in their actions and words. A true Christian is one whose faith is evident in their words, their actions, and in how they treat others. They not only express their faith in pious words, but actually live it. That is where “works” comes into the equation, as a sign of our faith expressed in our love for others. For after all, isn’t that where we will find Jesus?

“For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.” Luke 17

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

…Wait, what? Catholics have always told me that we are justified by grace through works and faith…Just look at this (It’s a Catholic website): home.flash.net/~truth/Justification.html

So, when Clement contradicts, you claim you believe justification by grace through faith, but when no threats are presented, you claim it’s by grace through faith and works?

This is a huge contradiction between Catholicism and Clement, and more importantly, Scripture. Scripture tells us that works aren’t of grace.

Works can not be added to grace. But Catholics do this. Why should I ignore the Scripture? If you add works to grace at all, it is not grace anymore.

Correct me if I’m wrong. And I would appreciate respect.

Hi Tristan,

We cannot have grace given faith (supernatural) apart from grace given works (supernatural). The love of God in our souls will lead to acts that are impossible apart from God’s working in us. If there are no supernatural works in our life, we cannot be living by supernatural faith. If we die in supernatural faith with the love of God (supernatural work, charity), we go to God. If we do not die with the love of God, we do not go to God.

Supernatural is a term ordinarily associated with miracles. But that is not the only meaning. It is too narrow. When, from a supernatural motive, loving God or neighbor, we perform an act that we would not otherwise have performed, that act is supernatural and meritorious. It may look ordinary, but that is because we cannot see the interior of a human soul, and the motive power. We must pray for perseverance that we will, by the grace of God alone, continue in charity (supernatural works) towards the perfection which is distinctly and uniquely intended for each saved soul in God’s creation, though we are nothing.

St. Paul opposes works of the law, naturally generated, as being opposed to grace and non-salvific. It is essential if you would understand Catholic soteriology (study of salvation) to distinguish the difference between natural works of the law and supernatural works of grace. It is always necessary to poitn out, as Sts. Clement and Paul did, that no one can be united to the Blessed Trinity through the natural order. That is why Clement wrote, “And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are
not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or
understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of
heart, but through faith…” Faith is the beginning of a supernatural life, whereby we lay aside any self-generated wisdom, understanding, piety, or works.