Pope condemns Christian "triumphalism"

[CutlerB]

Humility is part of truth. For example to use something that you pointed out. The Church does not put kindness before truth. Truth speaks of kindness. We cannot limit truth to dogmas and moral laws. Truth is much richer. It includes dogma, moral laws, the practice of virtue, human interactions which is kindness comes in, and the exercise of discipline, which is self-control.

Self-control is important. The fulness of the Church of Jesus Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. We know this and we believe it with our whole heart. I hope we do. No one expects us to deny this. If one listened to Pope Francis last Saturday as he spoke about peace to Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and atheists, he repeatedly said that real peace is only found in Christ. There is the difference between the triumphalist and the humble man.

The triumphalist wants to take advantage of the fact that he has all of these non-Catholics in front of him to tell them that we have the fullness of truth. The humble man simple speaks about the truth without making any reference to us.

Such a statement “peace is only found in Christ” triggers the question in the mind of the non-Christian. “Who said so?” or “Why do you say that?” This opens the door for further conversation without triumphalism. There is that simplicity that Fr. James and I are talking about that all of us need to cultivate.

That clears things up, Brother! I can really agree with that.

 

[JReducation]

That clears things up, Brother! I can really agree with that.

Have you noticed that we’ve become hypervigilant? The pope says “Booh!” and 75 people are asking what that means and another 75 are trying to speak for the pope to explain it. At the end of the day, the pope is in Rome and I’m in Alaska. Unless he says something that affects my spiritual life in Alaska, it’s just interesting news to me.

On the flip side, the pope says something that affects all of us, like his strong position on Syria and it got very little discussion on these forums. Who can understand the human mind?

 

[CutlerB]

Have you noticed that we’ve become hypervigilant? The pope says “Booh!” and 75 people are asking what that means and another 75 are trying to speak for the pope to explain it. At the end of the day, the pope is in Rome and I’m in Alaska. Unless he says something that affects my spiritual life in Alaska, it’s just interesting news to me.

On the flip side, the pope says something that affects all of us, like his strong position on Syria and it got very little discussion on these forums. Who can understand the human mind?

Indeed. People don’t like to be shaken up. Neither do I. That’s probably why we’re hypervigilant.

 

[Starrsmother]

Pope Francis has condemned what he calls “triumphalism” in Christianity.

Now, what exactly the Pope means by “triumphalism” is quite obscure to me. He could mean many things, but what does disconcert me is the fact that he speaks of “triumphalist liturgy”. Since he doesn’t qualify the statement any further, it is unclear what he refers to. The posts on this I’ve read often take it to refer to the Extraordinary Form.

As someone who loves the Forma Extraordinaria, that would really sadden me. Surely, in some sense the EF is “triumphalist”, for the simple reason that Christ triumphed over death. There is no other word. It’s not some “yeah cool, you beat death”, it’s a glorious thing worthy of celebration! Moreover, it is not only a Triumph that pertains only to Christ Himself, but He extends that Triumph to us. It is a Triumph for our sake, which renders this kind of “triumphalism” in no way arrogant but rather makes it a joyous thing in thankfulness and praise.

Since the words the Pope uses are quite vague, I can’t say whether he means that sort of thing or whether he is alright with it.

As for his sentence of “because they do not believe deep down in the Risen One”… there’s something for us to think about. I am not ashamed to admit that I struggle very often, and am far from a good Christian. I want to be and try, but fail miserably.

I’d like to hear your comments on His Holiness’ words.

I read the same sermon–and had to read it again as it bothered me initially too. However, when you look at that one word-- “triumphalism” and then put it into context with the rest of what Pope Francis said, I think he is referring to some of the non-Catholic and semi-secular beliefs that are so prevalent today. “Triumph” implies that someone wins over someone or something else. I don’t think the pope was, in this case, referring to Jesus’ triumph over death–but rather mankind’s approach to sharing in that triumph. Things like “I have accepted Jesus as my personal savior–therefore I know I am saved!” (Are you sure of that?) or “She is now an angel looking down on all those she loved” (How many times have we seen that one on Facebook?) or even the concept of a “Celebration of Life” (Really?)–are a little pompous and imply that the person saying it believes that somehow they are among the favored and chosen few without doing much work to get there. If you re-read Pope Francis’ remarks with that in mind, see if you don’t think it “jibes”. I kinda think that what Pope Francis was warning us against is the false arrogance of the secular world that tells us that all you have to do to be one of Jesus’ elect who will get a ticket straight to heaven is to say a few words and then no matter how one lives one’s life he/she is home free!

 

[JReducation]

I read the same sermon–and had to read it again as it bothered me initially too. However, when you look at that one word-- “triumphalism” and then put it into context with the rest of what Pope Francis said, I think he is referring to some of the non-Catholic and semi-secular beliefs that are so prevalent today. “Triumph” implies that someone wins over someone or something else. I don’t think the pope was, in this case, referring to Jesus’ triumph over death–but rather mankind’s approach to sharing in that triumph. Things like “I have accepted Jesus as my personal savior–therefore I know I am saved!” (Are you sure of that?) or “She is now an angel looking down on all those she loved” (How many times have we seen that one on Facebook?) or even the concept of a “Celebration of Life” (Really?)–are a little pompous and imply that the person saying it believes that somehow they are among the favored and chosen few without doing much work to get there. If you re-read Pope Francis’ remarks with that in mind, see if you don’t think it “jibes”. I kinda think that what Pope Francis was warning us against is the false arrogance of the secular world that tells us that all you have to do to be one of Jesus’ elect who will get a ticket straight to heaven is to say a few words and then no matter how one lives one’s life he/she is home free!

We have to look at all the situations and topics when he has used this word. He used it when speaking to the Jewish leadership. He condemned Catholic triumphalism. He was referring to those Catholics who feel the need to look down on Jews. It’s almost a childish attitude that says, “We’re better than you are, because we have Jesus.” Such an attitude can easily lead to anti semitism.

He used it when speaking about gays in the Church. The importance of remembering that God forgives and forgets and how dare we not forget. It’s a form of triumphalism. “I thank God that I’m not gay”. However, we forget that we do many other things that we shouldn’t be doing. We have no room to feel inflated, because we’re not gay. Maybe we gossip. Maybe we’re uncharitable in our dealings with people at work. Maybe we’re inattentive to our children and spouses. Maybe we have a negative attitude about everything, etc etc.

Catholicism is a place for the sinner, not the triumphant. As scripture says, those who are sick need the doctor, not those who are well. The Church is the hospital. The patients have no room to be prideful.

 

[JReducation]

Indeed. People don’t like to be shaken up. Neither do I. That’s probably why we’re hypervigilant.

It may help you to read some of the lectures that we give novices in the religious life. There is usually a very large component precisely on this subject that is very helpful. It’s about embracing inner silence and selective deafness. Selective deafness is when one hears, one examines if what one is hearing has anything to do with one’s current situation and if not, one returns his focus to what is immediately present. It comes from Kempis and Brother Lawrence.

I always like to explain it this way. I tell the novices that they need to cultivate in themselves the ability not to have emotions, opinions and reactions unless they are those consistent with the Church and the Rule of St. Francis. If a feeling is not consistent with Church or rule, then ignore it.

The more one learns to distinguish between what actually affects me in the here and now what does not not, the less rattled one becomes. At first it’s very hard to do. As one gets older it gets easier to do.

I was reading something the other day where Michael Voris was very upset about this and that. Then I read something else where a group of sedevacantists were very upset at Michael Voris because he was not Catholic enough. Instead of letting either piece rattle me, started to laugh aloud. I started to conjure up images of the individuals locked in a round room where the walls are made of mirrors so they can’t avoid seeing each other, unless they close their eyes and plug their ears. Then I said, “I’d love to be a fly on the wall in that room.” Using humor and fantasy, I avoided being rattled.

When the Holy Father asked the cardinals not to wear their red except for ceremony and I’ve noticed that even Msgr Marini was wearing a simple black cassock on Saturday, without the msgr trimmings some people were rattled. My reaction was to laugh. My first thought was, "This is going to be fun. The Church has not had a religious pope for more than 200 years. Unless you belong to a religious order, where you must read about the history of religious life, you wouldn’t know about the religious popes. They were quite different from secular popes.

You can join our secular brotherhood Secular Franciscans of Life and go through our novitiate program. You may like this internal discipline. Rattle becomes a thing of the past. Hope, trust, and interior silence become the most important things to focus on.

 

[R_C]

Religious triumphalism, generally, refers to a prideful attitude of a religious group about the total superiority of their own way of worshipping and theological notions. A lot of people get irritated by it.

At one point he did refer to those who favor the EF, not because there is something wrong with the EF, but with the way that some people look at the EF. It goes back to that notion that some people have that because they have discovered the EF they have discovered something better than what other Catholics have in the OF. That’s triumphalism.

On another occasion he used it to refer to those people who think that because we’re the Catholic Church and we have the full deposit of faith we can look down upon other faiths, especially the Jews. He declared that this is not Catholic. It’s triumphalism. He said that there was no room in the Church for such an attitude or belief system

The Holy Father is not against the sacred heritage of the Church. He did not speak against it when he spoke of pelagianism, and he is not speaking against it when he speaks of triumphalism.

People sort of “expect” him to be against this, because of the difference they see between his style and Pope Benedict’s style, but that’s not going to happen. This reminds me of the words of the Lord:

Men do not light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but upon a candlestick, that it may shine to all that are in the house.

 

[JReducation]

The Holy Father is not against the sacred heritage of the Church. He did not speak against it when he spoke of pelagianism, and he is not speaking against it when he speaks of triumphalism.

People sort of “expect” him to be against this, because of the difference they see between his style and Pope Benedict’s style, but that’s not going to happen. This reminds me of the words of the Lord:

You are correct. He’s speaking about attitudes.

 

[CutlerB]

You are correct. He’s speaking about attitudes.

Those two posts just unleashed some mysterious calmness in me.

 

[clem456]

You can join our secular brotherhood Secular Franciscans of Life and go through our novitiate program. You may like this internal discipline. Rattle becomes a thing of the past. Hope, trust, and interior silence become the most important things to focus on.

Sounds very appealing, if you ask twice I may jump ship. Of course I am married with college aged children, paying off loans and seeking retirement security for my wife and I. Living in “the world” seems incompatible with peace. Rattle is everywhere. Funny, I didn’t even know I had rattle til I found a taste of peace in my faith. Now I know I have rattle and wish it would go away.

My business requires marketing which is about calling attention to ourselves. And haggling with customers, which is our financial security in the balance. Dealing with deceptive business practices from others. Dealing with rejection in the community we serve and support. Lots of rattle.
Life is loud, hectic, full of faceless communication. Facebook, email, phone calls.

Thankfully I have adoration once a week, such a blessing. Peaceful.
Tow men’s scripture study groups provide support and prayer. Peaceful big time.
Serving the needy at our business. Peaceful

Through all this I tend to get hyper-vigilant about “my territory” (is there any such thing?).
My sister in law is camped on my easy chair with a broken arm for 7 weeks now. While doing my morning scripture reading, she likes to talk. Isn’t that time for peace?

The up-tempo music at the 11am Mass is a rattle, as is the fact that they play through all the open spaces in the Mass. All noise all the time. I don’t say anything to anyone, but it rattles me. I would like just 5 minutes of silence at the Mass to put the world in perspective.
On the positive side there are benefits for the young people in our parish, these people are participating at Mass. And the Mass is drawing a few folks that might otherwise be going to the modern bible church down the street. That’s the upside, but it’s still rattle.

Pastoral council just started for the year, our first meeting. I thought we would pray, read books, counsel with the pastor. No, we are going to do things. The church down the street is doing things, we need to do things. Contributions are down. We need to do something. Last night I suggested we needed to, as a group, immerse ourselves in our faith, pray, study, be more authentically Catholic, to be the change we want in the parish. Blank looks. No we need more of this…we need to do that… if we could only have this…

I’ve come to realize that being hyper vigilant about my territory does no good. It causes even more rattle. But I also do not expect much peace in my life. I don’t think it’s possible.

 

[vames]

More food for thought - this time from the Pope Emeritus:

Here, in the contexts of these two cultural ruptures: the first, the cultural revolution of 1968 and the second, the collapse, we might call it, into nihilism after 1989, the Church humbly set out among the afflictions of the world and the glory of the Lord. On this path we must grow, patiently, and must now learn in a new way what it means to give up triumphalism.

The Council had said that triumphalism should be given up - and was thinking of the baroque, of all these great cultures of the Church. People said: Let us begin in a new and modern way. But another triumphalism had developed, that of thought: we now do things, we have found our way, and on this path we will find the new world. Yet, the humility of the Cross, of the Crucified One, excludes this same triumphalism. We must renounce the triumphalism which holds that the great Church of the future is now truly being born.

Christ’s Church is always humble and in this very way is great and joyful. It seems to me very important that our eyes are now open and can see all that is positive which developed in the period subsequent to the Council: in the renewal of the liturgy, in the Synods, the Roman Synods, the universal Synods, the diocesan synods, the parish structures, in collaboration, in the new responsibility of lay people, in the great intercultural and intercontinental co-responsibility, in a new experience of the Church’s catholicity, of the unanimity that grows in humility and yet is the true hope of the world. Thus, I think we have to rediscover the Council’s great legacy. It is not a spirit reconstructed from texts but consists of the great Council texts themselves, reinterpreted today with the experiences we have had which have borne fruit in so many movements and so many new religious communities.

I went to Brazil knowing that the sects were spreading and that the Catholic Church there seemed somewhat fossilized; but once I arrived there, I saw that a new religious community is born in Brazil almost every day, a new movement is born. Not only are the sects growing, the Church is growing with new situations full of vitality, not in order to complete the statistics - this is a false hope, statistics are not our god - but these situations are growing in souls and create the joy of faith, the presence of the Gospel; consequently, they are also creating a true development of the world and of society.

It seems to me, therefore, that we must combine the great humility of the Crucified One, of a Church which is always humble and always opposed by the great economic and military powers, etc., but with this humility we must also learn the true triumphalism of catholicity that develops in all the centuries. Today too, the presence of the Crucified and Risen One, who has preserved his wounds, is increasing. He is wounded but it is in this way that he renews the world and gives his breath which also renews the Church, despite all our poverty. And I would say that it is in this combination of the humility of the Cross and the joy of the Risen Lord, who in the Council gave us a great signpost for our journey, that we can go ahead joyously and full of hope.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2007/july/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070724_clero-cadore_en.html

 

[JReducation]

He’s saying that we have to hold on to a spiritual triumphalism that really belongs to Christ, not to us. It is Christ who rises on Easter.

He’s also saying that the Church must be like the humble Christ on the cross, accepting the will of God and letting the will God steer her rather than our ideas of what the Church should be or not be, which was the problem with the baroque and then again with the modern era. In both cases, man tried to define what the Church should be instead of discover what she already is. This idea that man can define the Church is a form of triumphalism. Jesus enters into the passion without defining it, without setting up rules as to how he was to be sacrificed. But we often want to be part of the Church as long as she follows our guidelines. That’s not how Christ did it. We have to walk with the Church as if we were walking with Christ along the path to Golgotha, addressing one thing at a time.

 

[vames]

In both cases, man tried to define what the Church should be instead of discover what she already is. This idea that man can define the Church is a form of triumphalism.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Reading through this thread I am reminded of this from Pope Francis during the Angelus on August 18, 2013.

[Faith] is not decorating your life with a bit of religion as if life were a cake that you decorate with cream…
Following Jesus means renouncing evil, selfishness and choosing goodness, truth and justice even when that requires sacrifice and renouncing our own interests.

 

[hammerofjezabel]

Pope Francis has condemned what he calls “triumphalism” in Christianity.

Now, what exactly the Pope means by “triumphalism” is quite obscure to me. He could mean many things, but what does disconcert me is the fact that he speaks of “triumphalist liturgy”. Since he doesn’t qualify the statement any further, it is unclear what he refers to. The posts on this I’ve read often take it to refer to the Extraordinary Form.

As someone who loves the Forma Extraordinaria, that would really sadden me. Surely, in some sense the EF is “triumphalist”, for the simple reason that Christ triumphed over death. There is no other word. It’s not some “yeah cool, you beat death”, it’s a glorious thing worthy of celebration! Moreover, it is not only a Triumph that pertains only to Christ Himself, but He extends that Triumph to us. It is a Triumph for our sake, which renders this kind of “triumphalism” in no way arrogant but rather makes it a joyous thing in thankfulness and praise.

Since the words the Pope uses are quite vague, I can’t say whether he means that sort of thing or whether he is alright with it.

As for his sentence of “because they do not believe deep down in the Risen One”… there’s something for us to think about. I am not ashamed to admit that I struggle very often, and am far from a good Christian. I want to be and try, but fail miserably.

I’d like to hear your comments on His Holiness’ words.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.