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JohnR77
Guest
I think this is a great idea. If nothing else it will encourage Jews to consider Pope Pius XII’s record. It is amazing that so many Jews have allowed themselves to be duped by Rolf Hochhuth, who created the fictional play “The Deputy.” 
******
Rolf Hochhuth was a friend and defender of David Irving who denied the Holocaust.**
defendingthebride.com/sn/pius.html#kgb
John
******Rolf Hochhuth was a friend and defender of David Irving who denied the Holocaust.**
defendingthebride.com/sn/pius.html#kgb
John
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puppypatrol
Guest
YEAH!!! He is my “Go To” It will be wonderful to have him canonized.:extrahappy::juggle:
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gracepoole
Guest
Why oh why would the Vatican choose to further inflame the already problematic relationship between Jews and the Holy See? Why not wait until the Vatican’s records from Pius’ period are open? Why waive the required miracles? I’m not one for criticizing the Holy Father (whom I love!), but none of this makes sense to me.
D
DaveBj
Guest
I’m for it, not that my opinion matters. Decisions like this should not take into account who might or might not be “inflamed.”
C
Church_Militant
Guest
G
gracepoole
Guest
When Edith Stein was canonized, the ADL complained. And my view then and now is that her canonization wasn’t and shouldn’t be dependent on any group’s support or complaints. But her canonization was, for lack of a better phrase, “by the books.” My question relates to why the Holy See is interested in bypassing protocol for one of the most controversial Catholic figures in the modern era.
D
DaveBj
Guest
The only reason why he’s “controversial” is that some anti-Catholics made up a bunch of lies about him, and the mindless sheep who can’t be bothered to check their facts bought the lies.
G
gracepoole
Guest
I have to take exception to this generalization. I’ve studied and taught the Holocaust for over a decade. I’ve studied with colleagues, scholars, and survivors who represent many nations and faiths. I am not a mindless sheep and my career is based on checking facts. I would simply say that there will be no definitive period put on Pius XII’s sentence until the archives are opened. This isn’t a particularly shocking or extreme claim. It’s prudent.
M
Misplaced_Book
Guest
Indeed. In addition, this Pope tossing out precedent left and right is enough to definitely give pause.
Much is made over the canonization process, and the current system now in place is being dismantled at a record pace. Why have the miracle requirements at all?
“Because he is the Pope” may be a good enough answer for most Roman Catholics, but to the Orthodox who are paying attention, it raises more questions as to how reunion can be possible if Tradition is treated as dispensable on the whims of a single Bishop.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfE7OClMopssr9PlTvtWzwxRCZJLOE4_UKboMUJD3u_-0TxTbrno4GkcC4jG8Pcmqe1YC0aLA
St. Pius XII? Pope Francis Mulling It Over, Says Vatican Source
There is much good information in the above article.
I also read recently about the plan to open the files on WWII and Pope Pius XII soon (as the article mentions). The article on that said that this was mainly because it was encouraged by several of Pope Francis’ Jewish friends from Argentina who feel that the truth will exonerate Pius XII.
CA has several good sources on this as well.
The War on Pius XII
The Cause of Pius XII
The Cause of Pius XII (Encore)
How Pius XII Protected Jews
A Pius Legend
Catholic Urban Legends: ‘Hitler’s Pope’
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Grace-
In the course of your studies, have you uncovered any evidence that PIUS XII was, in fact, “Hitler’s Pope” as has been claimed?
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gracepoole
Guest
No, I think that title is unmerited and extreme. I think the questions that remain relate to the *extent *of Pius’ actions on behalf of the Jews and his decision not to speak more publicly about the Holocaust after the war.
J
JohnR77
Guest
Hi,
The Nazi’s occupied Rome until October 1943. Pope Pius XII not only put his own life on the line, but asked the cloistered nuns and priests to put their lives on the line as well as they saved hundreds of thousands of Jews.
Not since Jesus Christ, has one man done so much to save so many, only to be falsely accused by the very group of people that he risked his life to save.
I find the evidence defending Pope Pius XII overwhelming. Below is a Nazi cartoon lampooning him as Cardinal Pacelli before he was elevated to the Papacy.
Who did more than this man to help the Jews?
defendingthebride.com/sn/paceli5.jpg
A 1937 S.S. cartoon mocking the future Pius XII
as a supporter of Jews and anti-Nazis. The caption
reads: “She’s not too pretty. But she cooks well!”
The Nazi’s occupied Rome until October 1943. Pope Pius XII not only put his own life on the line, but asked the cloistered nuns and priests to put their lives on the line as well as they saved hundreds of thousands of Jews.
Not since Jesus Christ, has one man done so much to save so many, only to be falsely accused by the very group of people that he risked his life to save.
I find the evidence defending Pope Pius XII overwhelming. Below is a Nazi cartoon lampooning him as Cardinal Pacelli before he was elevated to the Papacy.
Who did more than this man to help the Jews?
defendingthebride.com/sn/paceli5.jpg
A 1937 S.S. cartoon mocking the future Pius XII
as a supporter of Jews and anti-Nazis. The caption
reads: “She’s not too pretty. But she cooks well!”
J
JohnR77
Guest
**A 1937 S.S. cartoon mocking the future Pius XII
as a supporter of Jews and anti-Nazis. The caption
reads: “She’s not too pretty. But she cooks well!”
**
as a supporter of Jews and anti-Nazis. The caption
reads: “She’s not too pretty. But she cooks well!”
**
C
Church_Militant
Guest
One thing that has always bothered me is people saying that he didn’t do enough.
Yet the facts show that he did more than anyone else did, including all the oh-so-noble allies who also knew what was going on and did exactly nothing at all until the end of the war. Even then, after the war thousands of Jews who wanted to immigrate to the U.S. and other countries could not obtain visas just because they were Jews. I know of one person whose family was in just such a situation and the local Bishop helped them by giving them baptismal certificates which allowed them to come to the U.S.
So all this hogwash about Pope Pius XII not doing enough is just that…hogwash.
Odd too that we never hear anyone badmouthing the allies for not doing anything and then denying the visas, do we?
Yet the facts show that he did more than anyone else did, including all the oh-so-noble allies who also knew what was going on and did exactly nothing at all until the end of the war. Even then, after the war thousands of Jews who wanted to immigrate to the U.S. and other countries could not obtain visas just because they were Jews. I know of one person whose family was in just such a situation and the local Bishop helped them by giving them baptismal certificates which allowed them to come to the U.S.
So all this hogwash about Pope Pius XII not doing enough is just that…hogwash.
Odd too that we never hear anyone badmouthing the allies for not doing anything and then denying the visas, do we?
G
gracepoole
Guest
Oh, my – I do! Constantly! In the circles I run, there is plenty of “badmouthing” to go around. The U.S., for example, certainly has a problematic record in this area. This is only one of many examples I offer students, but it’s a good one to draw attention to the failures of the U.S. during this time: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_St._Louis
I’ve worked with the folks here, as well: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_Haven_Museum_and_Education_Center
It’s an interesting exception to the rule (the **only **exception to the rule in some ways), though even this exception is fraught with problems.
M
Misplaced_Book
Guest
There are other aspects of his pontificate to consider. For example, the actions of the Catholic Church in the Balkans, during the war and prior…what did he know? Did the Vatican attempt to intervene here as well? Or not?
The Ustaša and the ethnic cleansing of Orthodox Serbs and other “undesirables.”
I think that Pius XII’s record needs to be scrutinized still, as there are many questions out there. It isn’t all an “anti-Catholic Conspiracy.”
The Ustaša and the ethnic cleansing of Orthodox Serbs and other “undesirables.”
I think that Pius XII’s record needs to be scrutinized still, as there are many questions out there. It isn’t all an “anti-Catholic Conspiracy.”
J
JohnR77
Guest
So, do I. ** I just wish it was even considered **rather than all the propaganda.
Do we know EVERYTHING about anything ? Probably not. BUT we do know enough to know that he was a saintly man, a friend of the Jews.
** Letter Shows Future Pius XII Opposed Hitler in 1923**
(Zenit).- "A letter written in 1923 by the future Pope Pius XII shows his early opposition to Nazi anti-Semitism. …
Code:
The letter dated Nov. 14, 1923, was written by then Archbishop Pacelli, the Holy See's ambassador in Bavaria, in southern Germany, to Cardinal Pietro Gasparri, Vatican secretary of state under Pope Pius XI.
The letter refers to Adolf Hitler's failed attempt to take over the local government in Munich in the National Socialist Party's putsch of Nov. 9, 1923 -- just five days before the day this letter was written.
In his letter, Archbishop Pacelli -- contrary to the allegations of a number of recent authors such as John Cornwell (author of "Hitler's Pope") on the relations between Pius XII and the Nazis -- denounces the National Socialist movement as an anti-Catholic threat and at the same time notes that the cardinal of Munich had already condemned acts of persecution against Bavaria's Jews."I could post more pictures, but I have a hard time getting them small enough for CAF protocol and still legible.
John
J
JohnR77
Guest
Hi,
Permit me to clarify the Jewish opinion of Pope Pius XII.
Prior to 1964 when the fictitious play, The Deputy, came out there was universal acclaim by all Jews for Pope Pius XII whom they held in highest regards.
After the play many Jews have come to the conclusion that these other Jews who lived during the reign of Pope Pius XII and knew him personally really did not know what they were talking about and that the Pope was a terrible person.
However, recently there have been many Jews that have come to Pope’s defense, and consider him to be a Righteous Gentile. See Gary Krupp for example to whose website I provide a link on my web page has done a tremendous job in defending the Pope.
But, now let us consider the cover of John Cornwell’s book who shows an actual photograph of Cardinal Pacelli before he became Pope.
Original image of John Cornwell’s cover to his book Hitler’s Pope published in Europe and which provides the date of 1939.
defendingthebride.com/temp/HitlersPope.jpg
Image of his book published in America
defendingthebride.com/temp/220px-Hitlerspope.jpg
Actual Photograph
defendingthebride.com/temp/Pope-Pius-XII-460_980938c.jpg
These questions below are not mine, but what others have asked.
Why does the Pope consort with the Nazi’s ?
Why is the SS officer saluting the Pope ?
Permit me to clarify the Jewish opinion of Pope Pius XII.
Prior to 1964 when the fictitious play, The Deputy, came out there was universal acclaim by all Jews for Pope Pius XII whom they held in highest regards.
After the play many Jews have come to the conclusion that these other Jews who lived during the reign of Pope Pius XII and knew him personally really did not know what they were talking about and that the Pope was a terrible person.
However, recently there have been many Jews that have come to Pope’s defense, and consider him to be a Righteous Gentile. See Gary Krupp for example to whose website I provide a link on my web page has done a tremendous job in defending the Pope.
But, now let us consider the cover of John Cornwell’s book who shows an actual photograph of Cardinal Pacelli before he became Pope.
Original image of John Cornwell’s cover to his book Hitler’s Pope published in Europe and which provides the date of 1939.
defendingthebride.com/temp/HitlersPope.jpg
Image of his book published in America
defendingthebride.com/temp/220px-Hitlerspope.jpg
Actual Photograph
defendingthebride.com/temp/Pope-Pius-XII-460_980938c.jpg
These questions below are not mine, but what others have asked.
Why does the Pope consort with the Nazi’s ?
Why is the SS officer saluting the Pope ?
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