Pope Election = Infallible

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jaguar
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jaguar

Guest
Can the election of a new pope be considered an infallible act of the Church?

I know it is not a typical infallible statement, but what is it? We know the the Church leaders are being lead by the Holy Spirit.
 
Can the election of a new pope be considered an infallible act of the Church?

I know it is not a typical infallible statement, but what is it? We know the the Church leaders are being lead by the Holy Spirit.
No, it is not an act of the extraordinary magisteruim and thus is not infallible. Infallibility only applies when a Pope is defining a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the entire Church. It does not apply when Cardinals vote.

And when we say the Holy Ghost is leading the Church, we must remember that God does not override the free will of the Cardinals. If they seek the assistance of the Holy Ghost in choosing the Pope, the Holy Ghost will enlighten them; but if they elect a Pope because it is who they like for personal reasons, it does not follow that this choice of theirs is inspired by the Holy Ghost.

If the Holy Ghost moved the Cardinals to elect the best man, they would all vote for the same person… but that is not what happens. Instead, it usually takes several votes before a Pope is selected. This means that some Cardinals change their mind during the process, which again shows that they maintain their free will during the election.
 
Well, logically speaking, it is entirely possible that the Cardinals will elect someone other than that whom God intends. Now, assuming the Cardinals have free will when selecting the new Pope, would it not then be logical to assume that the Pope has free will as well, meaning he can either listen to the will of God, or ignore it?
 
DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI says this:
With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations …37
This isn’t exactly infallibility, but it may be what you’re thinking of .
 
Well, logically speaking, it is entirely possible that the Cardinals will elect someone other than that whom God intends. Now, assuming the Cardinals have free will when selecting the new Pope, would it not then be logical to assume that the Pope has free will as well, meaning he can either listen to the will of God, or ignore it?
Of course the Pope has free will. Are you under the impression that whatever the Pope does is inspired by the Holy Ghost? I think some people think that, but it is completely wrong. The Pope can fall into error just as you and I can, and the Holy Ghost does will permit it. The only difference is that when the Pope defines a doctrine to be held universally by all Catholics, the Holy Ghost will protect him from error. That is what Papal Infallibility means. It doesn’t mean that the Pope is infallible in faith or morals at all times.

If the Pope is not defining a doctrine, he can err just as you and I can. Pope Honorious was condemned as a heretic by a future Pope for teaching what appeared to be heresy and for not defending the faith (see the newadvent.or article in Honorious). Pope John XXII taught on numerous occaisions (and publicly) that a person who died in the state of grace would not see the beatific vision until after the final judgment. He was corrected by his advisors and renounced the error in writing while on his death bed.
 
Pope John XXII taught on numerous occaisions (and publicly) that a person who died in the state of grace would not see the beatific vision until after the final judgment.
How is that not a teaching on faith or morals?
 
Can the election of a new pope be considered an infallible act of the Church?

I know it is not a typical infallible statement, but what is it? We know the the Church leaders are being lead by the Holy Spirit.
When a Pope is elected an intellectual proposition is not being made; someone is being chosen for a role.
If the conclave is regular it cannot elect an invalid Pope, that is to say be overruled on choice of candidate by another group within the Church.
 
How is that not a teaching on faith or morals?
It was a teaching of faith, but the Pope was not defining the doctrine. He was just teaching it. Remember, the Pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine, not simply when he teaches a doctrine, or explains, a doctrine.
 
It was a teaching of faith, but the Pope was not defining the doctrine. He was just teaching it. Remember, the Pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine, not simply when he teaches a doctrine, or explains, a doctrine.
What differentiates “defining a doctrine” from “teaching a doctrine”? Examples?
 
Per the OP:

It’s not a timeless truth, so your question doesn’t really make sense. The Cardinals can and sometimes do elect a bad pope who really isn’t cut out for the job–but the Church’s supreme head is Jesus and he can make up for a bad pope if need be 😉
 
What differentiates “defining a doctrine” from “teaching a doctrine”? Examples?
Defining means to definitively proclaim. It’s like a once and for all thing. If I talk about a doctrine with you, I am just explaining it or teaching it. But if I declare definitively with supreme apostolic authority that x doctrine is a truth and that it must be held by the whole Church, then it is a definition.

As an example, the pope talks and teaches about the Divinity of Jesus all the time, but it was the Council of Nicea that defined (definitively proclaimed) this truth
 
40.png
Pax:
the Pope is only infallible when he defines a doctrine, not simply when he teaches a doctrine, or explains, a doctrine.
Let me restate: The Pope is infallible when he speaks 1) to the Universal Church 2) on a matter of faith and morals 3) from the Chair of Peter. It’s a formal moment. If any one of these elements are missing, it is not considered a statement of the infallible extraordinary magesterium.

Right?
 
Let me restate: The Pope is infallible when he speaks 1) to the Universal Church 2) on a matter of faith and morals 3) from the Chair of Peter. It’s a formal moment. If any one of these elements are missing, it is not considered a statement of the infallible extraordinary magesterium.

Right?
There are other requirements, too, such as the necessity of the Pope to be in consultation with the bishops and the Church at large.
 
There are other requirements, too, such as the necessity of the Pope to be in consultation with the bishops and the Church at large.
After Vatican I, I don’t think that is true if the Pope is truly acting ex cathedra.
 
Well, logically speaking, it is entirely possible that the Cardinals will elect someone other than that whom God intends.
Such elections, it appears, have happened. The thing the Church is assured of is that no pope will err when speaking ex cathedra, on a matter of faith or morals, to the Universal Church. And indeed, those ancient popes known to have lived worldly or even immoral lives made no such doctrinal pronouncements. Presumably, they weren’t interested anyway, but we believe the Holy Spirit would not have allowed them to teach, in the formal way described, any error as Pope.
Now, assuming the Cardinals have free will when selecting the new Pope, would it not then be logical to assume that the Pope has free will as well, meaning he can either listen to the will of God, or ignore it?
Yes, you are right, it is logical. That is why we see the popes praying always, attending confession regularly. They are just as aware, as you say, that they are free to ignore God. A pope can make a lot of mistakes from advocating the wrong toothpaste to holding that the faithful dead do not see God til the last Day–the only thing a mistaken pope will not do, is teach error to the Universal Church, on a matter of faith and morals, from the chair of Peter.

The Holy Spirit’s support is sort of a negative force: He preserves the Church from this kind of formal error–He does not assure perfectly crafted or fully complete teaching. He assures lack of error, not perfection.
 
There are other requirements, too, such as the necessity of the Pope to be in consultation with the bishops and the Church at large.
No!. The Pope can speak infallibly with or without the bishops.
 
Here’s from the CCC on Papal Infallibility, and infallibility as extended to the bishops:
891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” …
Sometimes I think some bishops would like the faithful to be unclear about this: It was to Peter as the Rock that the promise of infallibility was made–and Peter is the support of his brothers. They can share in his infallibility when they join with him in formally proclaiming some teaching–not otherwise!
 
Well, it depends upon what you mean by “without”. At the very least, the Pope must consult.
I don’t think so. Maybe he does, but I don’t think that it is required that he consult:

Dogmatic definition of 1870
In the conclusion of the fourth chapter of its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Pastor Aeternus, solemnly promulgated by Pope Pius IX, the First Vatican Council in 1870 declared the following:

“ We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." (emphasis added)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
 
I don’t think so. Maybe he does, but I don’t think that it is required that he consult:

Dogmatic definition of 1870
In the conclusion of the fourth chapter of its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Pastor Aeternus, solemnly promulgated by Pope Pius IX, the First Vatican Council in 1870 declared the following:

“ We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." (emphasis added)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
“Consent” is one thing. “Consult” is another. The Pope must consult, but it is not necessary that anyone else consent, or agree. For instance, the Pope Paul VI consulted with others before writing Humanae Vitae. That didn’t mean that the Pope’s advisors (or large portions of the American Church, for instance) agreed with, or consented, to the encyclical.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top