POPE Equates Atheism and Naziism

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Robert_Burns

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Did anyone see this news story on MSN? Thats a bold statement isnt it.
 
While I don’t think that the news is really being fair to the Popes actual statement I have to say that I can’t fathom what was going through the heads of the people who helped author or reviewed this statement. I could have told them that the paragraph in question would be latched onto and attacked. Any statement on Nazis, especially in Europe, is taken rather sensitively and the link between Nazism and Atheism isn’t exactly a clear black and white historical fact. Nazis even had a standard issue belt buckle that said something along the lines of “God is with us” in German. And of course it doesn’t help the whole issue that almost everyone knows that the Pope was a part of the Hitler youth, even if it wasn’t a matter of choice.

It doesn’t really seem like the Church has quite grasped how important it is to be careful with individual statements and PR when dealing with the modern Western world. Of course most older politicians don’t seem to be able to figure this out either. Perhaps the Church should consider taking a few of their brighter young western priests and getting them involved in this stuff. I know the Pope’s advisors are traditionally high ranking and older officials, but a young voice here or there might be nice consider the rapid pace at which the world is changing now-a-days.

Oh and you should link the articles you are talking about. I couldn’t find the MSN one, but here is the BBC one that probably says pretty much the same thing. bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515
 
The Shutzstaffel were officially pagans, at least during the war; it’s well documented.
 
They were indeed pagans or the Germanic order, at least officially. While many of them may have been atheists in their hearts, I’m not sure that it was such a great idea for this pope to speak out about Nazism in anything other than concrete, historical terms. Someone should have realised that this would cause a problem, whether he was right or wrong. There has to have been a better way to express the ideas without using the word “Nazi.”
 
Aramis said:
The Shutzstaffel were officially pagans, at least during the war; it’s well documented.
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And pagans aren’t exactly atheists, thus the issue not being black and white. There were some atheists involved though, and some Christians. The Germans weren’t quite the evil hive-mind that we like to paint them as in our novels, movies, and video games.
 
Aramis said:
The Shutzstaffel were officially pagans, at least during the war; it’s well documented.
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While I don’t disagree with this formulation, outside of a few isolated cases such as (perhaps) Himler and the like, I don’t think that these guys went around actually praying to Odin or Thor.

The peculiar Romantic paganism of the Nazis was essentially godless. Perhaps that is His Holiness’ very point.
 
BBC story acknowledges “upfront” (in “small print” so to speak)…that the Pope APPEARED… to associate atheism with the Nazis has prompted criticism from humanist organisations.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515The pope urged the UK to guard against “aggressive forms of secularism”.
A speech in which the Pope****appeared to associate atheism with the Nazis has prompted criticism from humanist organisations.
However, the Catholic Church has moved to play down the controversy, saying the Pope knew “rather well what the Nazi ideology is about”.
Humanists have said the comments were a “terrible libel” against non-believers…
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…In his address, the Pope spoke of"a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society".
He went on to urge the UK to guard against “aggressive forms of secularism”.
The Pope made his remarks in his opening address to the Queen at Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh.
He said: "Even in our own lifetimes we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live.
"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus a reductive vision of a person and his destiny."
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The Truth…about the Pope’s analogy/comparison remarks of Nazi/atheist extremism…and what they both result in if not kept in “check”…is on His side…if one simply reviews the facts and history. He said nothing that is a factual or historical error…but there are some who have the will to disbelieve…even factual/historical truths…and even more so…the will to not understand…no matter what is put before them. Free will is a great gift…but…it can be and often is…“a deadly rope”!

Pax Christi
 
It might be more prudent to make this kind of statement in comparing atheism to Communism, as practiced in the USSR and China, since they were/are institutionally and philosophically atheist. Stalin’s record on human rights is at least as damning as Hitler’s.
 
Robert_Burns said:
Did anyone see this news story on MSN? Thats a bold statement isnt it.
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I don’t think the Pope meant that all Nazi’s don’t believe in God. He probably meant that the rise of the Philosphy of Nazism is due to a loss of faith.
 
seanflynn said:
It might be more prudent to make this kind of statement in comparing atheism to Communism, as practiced in the USSR and China, since they were/are institutionally and philosophically atheist. Stalin’s record on human rights is at least as damning as Hitler’s.
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I’m not sure that he wasn’t talking about communism at that point. At least when I read it, I thought he was. Nazism and communism both center around power, and although the Nazi leaders liked to talk about the old northern pagan gods, they seem to have treated (e.g.) Siegfried as something closer to Nietzsche’s übermensch and worshipped that, if anything. Anyway, their actions proclaimed them as entirely materialistic. Only with a focus on this world can you think that anything will be made better by eugenics, and even if they had been right in their thoughts about the Jewish people (which they were NOT), only with a this-worldly outlook do their actions make sense.

I think the Pope is drawing out the common threads in the largely materialistic violent movements of the 20th century. They share, along with violence, a desire to stamp out genuine religious belief and practice and replace it with devotion to the state.

And there is a reason that the Pope might want to refrain from talking about communism openly in this way, as there are many Catholics in China still in prison or work camps and a lot of others who need relations between China and the Vatican to be as smooth as possible, so that they are not imprisoned as well.

As an only tangentially related point, I wish that, when “reporting” on the confliict between atheism and religion, the media would spend at least as much time talking about Stalin and the Cultural Revolution in China, both of which were in the last 100 years, as they currently spend talking about the Crusades (for the most part over 700 years ago) and Galileo (almost 400 years ago).

That’s just my thoughts; I’m not an expert.

–Jen
 
As an only tangentially related point, I wish that, when “reporting” on the confliict between atheism and religion, the media would spend at least as much time talking about Stalin and the Cultural Revolution in China, both of which were in the last 100 years, as they currently spend talking about the Crusades (for the most part over 700 years ago) and Galileo (almost 400 years ago
👍👍
but that would require a fairness to the Church that is antithetical to modern thought
 
“It doesn’t really seem like the Church has quite grasped how important it is to be careful with individual statements and PR when dealing with the modern Western world.”

:rotfl:

I saw a program on EWTN documenting what the aethist Nazis did to priests, nuns, the lay faithful and the Churches during their occupation of Poland.

1-December-2009 – Catholic News Agency

Crucifix Essential to European Identity, Say Bishops of Poland

"Rome, Italy, Dec 1, 2009 (CNA).- The Bishops of Poland have joined in the chorus of outrage over a ruling by the EU Human Rights Court in Strasbourg that ordered all crucifixes be removed from schools in Italy. The Polish bishops echoed the sentiments of numerous government officials from various countries, and even of one young Muslim writer.

Gathered for their plenary assembly in Czstochowa, the bishops expressed their protest “against the ruling by the Strasbourg court regarding the symbol of the cross” and rejected “the gestures of hostility that, on this occasion, have taken place in Poland against this symbol, reported the Polish Catholic information agency KAI.”

The ruling does not currently apply to the northern European nation, but it could bring about a revision of its laws governing the public display of symbols, including those in state-run schools.

Crucifixes were only just reinstalled in public areas in Poland following the end of communism there in 1989. The cross had been absent since the Nazis occupied the country in 1939.

According to L’Osservatore Romano, the bishops said the crucifix “is not only a sacred sign for all Christians but also an important element of European cultural identity, among the symbols of many countries and organizations.”
 
It’s not Atheism, per se, but rather Darwinism that led to Naziism.
And Hitler, athough pretended to be Christian to gain followers, actually was quoted making fun of Christianity in private.
  1. Some races are more “evolved” than others.
  2. Less “evolved” races are inferior.
  3. The elderly and the sick cannot contribute to society, so they are also inferior.
  4. It is okay to torture/kill/put in concentration camps the people who are inferior.
  5. The Aryan race is superior and should be promoted to better the future of the human race.
What a nasty mess!
 
PatrickSebast said:
It doesn’t really seem like the Church has quite grasped how important it is to be careful with individual statements and PR when dealing with the modern Western world.
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The Church is not running for public office or selling SUV’s. Proclaiming the truth does require slick, young, western spin doctors.
 
The British Humanist Association condemned the Pope’s remarks. In a statement, it said: “The notion that it was the atheism of Nazis that led to their extremist and hateful views or that it somehow fuels intolerance in Britain today is a terrible libel against those who do not believe in God. “The notion that it is nonreligious people in the UK today who want to force their views on others, coming from a man whose organisation exerts itself internationally to impose its narrow and exclusive form of morality and undermine the human rights of women, children, gay people and many others, is surreal.”
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The Holy Father knows what he is talking about. The outrage here is coming from The British Humanist Association an organization who’s roots are in eugenics. These people are outspoken enemies of the Church. They are closely aligned with Maria Stopes International and the abortion industry with their ships that provide abortions to countries where it is not legal. The British Humanist Association knows the Holy Father is talking about them and other radical atheist groups.

Julian Huxley was a prominent member of the British Eugenics Society,[67] and was Vice-President (1937–1944) and President (1959–1962).

Julian Huxley was the first president of the British Humanist Association in 1963.

Here is a quote from the British Humanist Association’s first president:
“The lowest strata are reproducing too fast. Therefore… they must not have too easy access to relief or hospital treatment lest the removal of the last check on natural selection should make it too easy for children to be produced or to survive; long unemployment should be a ground for sterilisation.” Julian Huxley :First president of the British Humanist Association. (This quote from: Keynes, Milo and Harrison, G. Ainsworth (eds) 1989. Evolutionary studies: a centenary celebration of the life of Julian Huxley. Proceeding of the 24th annual symposium of the Eugenics Society, London 1987. Macmillan, London.)

Pray for the Holy Father. He knows what he is doing. He’s not just mis-speaking. He is doing God’s work.
 
murphjos said:
The Church is not running for public office or selling SUV’s. Proclaiming the truth does require slick, young, western spin doctors.
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This is a HUGE difference between spin doctors and conveying your message in a clear and concise way. The Church doesn’t even have an effective means for responding to its supporters concerns much less its critics. The “simple speaking the truth” defense doesn’t hold water when you message could easily be taken to mean a multitude of things. The problem I have is not with what I believe the Pope was saying but with the fact that it was worded in a way that probably would have lost me points in college paper. I am willing to respect and adhere to the mans authority, but that doesn’t mean I can’t look at something and say “Gee, he probably shouldn’t have done that.”
 
Cathryn said:
The Holy Father knows what he is talking about. The outrage here is coming from The British Humanist Association an organization who’s roots are in eugenics. These people are outspoken enemies of the Church. They are closely aligned with Maria Stopes International and the abortion industry with their ships that provide abortions to countries where it is not legal. The British Humanist Association knows the Holy Father is talking about them and other radical atheist groups.

Julian Huxley was a prominent member of the British Eugenics Society,[67] and was Vice-President (1937–1944) and President (1959–1962).

Julian Huxley was the first president of the British Humanist Association in 1963.

Here is a quote from the British Humanist Association’s first president:
“The lowest strata are reproducing too fast. Therefore… they must not have too easy access to relief or hospital treatment lest the removal of the last check on natural selection should make it too easy for children to be produced or to survive; long unemployment should be a ground for sterilisation.” Julian Huxley :First president of the British Humanist Association. (This quote from: Keynes, Milo and Harrison, G. Ainsworth (eds) 1989. Evolutionary studies: a centenary celebration of the life of Julian Huxley. Proceeding of the 24th annual symposium of the Eugenics Society, London 1987. Macmillan, London.)

Pray for the Holy Father. He knows what he is doing. He’s not just mis-speaking. He is doing God’s work.
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While I don’t actually know anything about the organization I am willing to bet it is little different now, I am betting there are a lot of members who have little involvement besides receiving news letters and perhaps donating a bit of money, and that many of those people have varied thoughts and opinions. Unless the society itself currently advocates a certain viewpoint it isn’t really fair to try and shove all of its members into box labeled “Child killing, Church opposing, eugenic supporting heathens.”

Anyway what they are doesn’t really affect the validity of their statement. Satan himself isn’t unable to speak the truth, and if that truth will lead more people away from Christ he will be glad to do it. When you look at it from their viewpoint it is not terribly hard to imagine how they could see the Pope’s words in a negative light. Personally when someone takes offense to the way I worded something I don’t ever feel like the proper response is to insist that they were simply wrong to read it that way and that their criticisms are invalid. I simply say “Whoops, sorry” and try to clarify/correct what I said.
 
PatrickSebast said:
While I don’t actually know anything about the organization I am willing to bet it is little different now, I am betting there are a lot of members who have little involvement besides receiving news letters and perhaps donating a bit of money, and that many of those people have varied thoughts and opinions. Unless the society itself currently advocates a certain viewpoint it isn’t really fair to try and shove all of its members into box labeled “Child killing, Church opposing, eugenic supporting heathens.”

Anyway what they are doesn’t really affect the validity of their statement. Satan himself isn’t unable to speak the truth, and if that truth will lead more people away from Christ he will be glad to do it. When you look at it from their viewpoint it is not terribly hard to imagine how they could see the Pope’s words in a negative light. Personally when someone takes offense to the way I worded something I don’t ever feel like the proper response is to insist that they were simply wrong to read it that way and that their criticisms are invalid. I simply say “Whoops, sorry” and try to clarify/correct what I said.
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The British Humanist Association that took offense to the Holy Fathers speech is the same radical atheist organization that is actively promoting today abortion, euthanasia, stem cell research on human embryos, etc. The Holy Father isn’t going to apologize for offending them. Euthanasia, abortion, scientific research on humanities most vulnerable are not much different than the views and practices of the Nazis. It is human genecide. The Holy Father wants to call it what it is. He is warning the whole world to beware of this kind of radical atheism and what it leads to.
 
The Pope ought not to play too fast and loose in equating Nazism with atheism, paganism etc. The Nazi movement and ideology was rooted VERY firmly in Christian soil. The dynamics of anti-Semitism arose entirely from Christian society and theology. Hitler’s regime proceeded with Rome’s public acquiescence. Nazi ideology certainly also made appeals to pagan mythology, but at no time were temples raised and consecrated to those gods. Germans were Catholic and protestant and were encouraged to be so by the regime. The Nazis believed the German people (more broadly the Aryans), had a divinely ordained superiority and purpose. A warped religion, certainly, but by no stretch of the imagination were they atheists.

Nor is atheism the real threat to our civilization and existence. The people who endeavor to vaporize the center of a major western city in the next decade, and will probably succeed in doing so, are as far from atheism as one can get. They are beleivers who sprout from the same soil as Christianity.
 
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