Pope explains why he is going to Assisi-III

[JReducation]

After doing a quick search of google dictionary to find out what he was talking about , I also do hope so.

But I also ask, why must this commemoration be celebrated in some way?

I don’t think that gathering religious leaders of the world to remind the world that we can and should live in peace is a waste of time. It’s a very visual lesson.

What a bad idea to go to this. Leaders of a bunch of religions that believe in false gods getting together with the leader of the one true religion and making it seem they are all on par. What could go wrong? Hopefully this won’t scandalize many of us as much as the previous ones.

One of the great doctors of the Franciscan Order, Lawrence of Brindisi, once said that those who choose to be scandalized are more guilty than those who inadvertently scandalize. The former are choosing a wrong, the latter have no malicious intent. The problem with those who choose to be scandalized is that they spread scandal. As St. Lawrence would tell us, we have the power to choose what will scandalize us and what will not.

Wouildn’t it be good if the Holy Father said at Assisi "You must all convert, my children, or risk damnation", in a kindly, paternal way.

The bold is mine. We cannot tell people that they are going to hell, because we have no way of knowing who goes to hell. We know what grave sin is, but we don’t know what happens at the subjective level.

An invitation to come to the fullness of Christianity is a good thing. A threat to that if you don’t you’ll go to hell, is not prudent. We cannot predict it and those who have used such rhetoric in the past did not achieve the desired result. Finally, you don’t go to Assisi to say something that Francis would never say.

The reason that Assisi was chosen for these gatherings was because of Francis deep compassion and respect for people of all faiths and his desire for peace between Christians and Muslims. Let us not forget that he founded the first canonical Catholic jurisdiction in Muslim territory with the explicit command to his brothers not to try to convert the Muslims and Jews. This jurisdiction was elevated to a papal custody to this day, which the Franciscan Friars still run. That’s the Custody of the Holy Land. Francis’ command to the friars was to preach the Gospel through humility, kindness, poverty, obedience, and fraternity toward all and let God do the rest. They were to serve the material needs of all men, the spiritual needs of Christians and to invite others to the Gospel, but to avoid all conflicts. He gave them very strict orders to avoid all kinds of arguments over religion at the risk of being dismissed from the order.

I believe that along with the fact that Francis was the man who preached peace between people of different faiths, another reason for choosing Assisi is because Franciscans have earned the trust of peoples of other faiths. Many friars gave their lives in China, India, the Middle East and the Americas. They were unjustly accused of trying to proselytize. Over the centuries, many intelligent non-Christians in these countries have admitted that the Franciscans were truly innocent of violating their laws and that the killings were politically motivated in the name of religion. This gained the respect from Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims. Many Muslims still venerate Francis of Assisi as a Sufi. According to Islam, a Sufi is “one whose objective is the reparation of the heart and turning it away from all else but God. The Sufi knows how to travel into the presence of the Divine, purify one’s inner self from filth, and beautify it with a variety of virtues.”

If you’re going to invite non-Christians to a place where they will feel safe and a place for which they feel respect and warmth, Assisi is perfect, because Francis and his sons are well respected by non-Christians as men of peace.

With that historical background, I trust the Holy Fathers’ judgment in calling people of different faiths to convocation for peace in Assisi.

The one thing that many people may not know about Assisi and about the Franciscans is that Assisi, since the erection of the Franciscan Order has become a Mecca of sorts for people of many faiths. The friars have made it a point of being welcoming and not interfering in the religious beliefs of the pilgrims who come to venerate and honor Francis. In fact, during WW II, the friars violated only God knows how many Church laws, to hide Jews in Assisi. They did everything from writing false baptism and ordination certificates for Jews, to hiding men and women in monasteries that had papal enclosures. According to Canon Law, you are excommunicated for violating a papal enclosure. The friars did it without asking for permission. Non-Christians who observed their courage and their compassion have great respect for them and trust them.

In Israel and Jordan, Muslims, Christians and Jews also have a great deal of respect for the friars and trust them. They do not take sides and they bring people from all three groups together to work for the good of the entire community.

It’s the Fundamentalists and the terrorists who hate the friars, because the friars are a contradiction to everything they try to preach about Catholicism. For the friars, welcoming all of these folks to Assisi has been part of their everyday life. It reinforces trust in the mind of non-Christians. Unless you have trust, you’re not going to have converts. You certainly are not going to have peace. Peace is the purpose of these gatherings. This being the week of the 785 anniversary of St. Francis’ entrance into glory, let us take his example and trust the popes as he did. God knows that the popes of his time could be rascals.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I don’t think that gathering religious leaders of the world to remind the world that we can and should live in peace is a waste of time. It’s a very visual lesson.

One of the great doctors of the Franciscan Order, Lawrence of Brindisi, once said that those who choose to be scandalized are more guilty than those who inadvertently scandalize. The former are choosing a wrong, the latter have no malicious intent. The problem with those who choose to be scandalized is that they spread scandal. As St. Lawrence would tell us, we have the power to choose what will scandalize us and what will not.

The bold is mine. We cannot tell people that they are going to hell, because we have no way of knowing who goes to hell. We know what grave sin is, but we don’t know what happens at the subjective level.

An invitation to come to the fullness of Christianity is a good thing. A threat to that if you don’t you’ll go to hell, is not prudent. We cannot predict it and those who have used such rhetoric in the past did not achieve the desired result. Finally, you don’t go to Assisi to say something that Francis would never say.

The reason that Assisi was chosen for these gatherings was because of Francis deep compassion and respect for people of all faiths and his desire for peace between Christians and Muslims. Let us not forget that he founded the first canonical Catholic jurisdiction in Muslim territory with the explicit command to his brothers not to try to convert the Muslims and Jews. This jurisdiction was elevated to a papal custody to this day, which the Franciscan Friars still run. That’s the Custody of the Holy Land. Francis’ command to the friars was to preach the Gospel through humility, kindness, poverty, obedience, and fraternity toward all and let God do the rest. They were to serve the material needs of all men, the spiritual needs of Christians and to invite others to the Gospel, but to avoid all conflicts. He gave them very strict orders to avoid all kinds of arguments over religion at the risk of being dismissed from the order.

I believe that along with the fact that Francis was the man who preached peace between people of different faiths, another reason for choosing Assisi is because Franciscans have earned the trust of peoples of other faiths. Many friars gave their lives in China, India, the Middle East and the Americas. They were unjustly accused of trying to proselytize. Over the centuries, many intelligent non-Christians in these countries have admitted that the Franciscans were truly innocent of violating their laws and that the killings were politically motivated in the name of religion. This gained the respect from Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims. Many Muslims still venerate Francis of Assisi as a Sufi. According to Islam, a Sufi is “one whose objective is the reparation of the heart and turning it away from all else but God. The Sufi knows how to travel into the presence of the Divine, purify one’s inner self from filth, and beautify it with a variety of virtues.”

If you’re going to invite non-Christians to a place where they will feel safe and a place for which they feel respect and warmth, Assisi is perfect, because Francis and his sons are well respected by non-Christians as men of peace.

With that historical background, I trust the Holy Fathers’ judgment in calling people of different faiths to convocation for peace in Assisi.

The one thing that many people may not know about Assisi and about the Franciscans is that Assisi, since the erection of the Franciscan Order has become a Mecca of sorts for people of many faiths. The friars have made it a point of being welcoming and not interfering in the religious beliefs of the pilgrims who come to venerate and honor Francis. In fact, during WW II, the friars violated only God knows how many Church laws, to hide Jews in Assisi. They did everything from writing false baptism and ordination certificates for Jews, to hiding men and women in monasteries that had papal enclosures. According to Canon Law, you are excommunicated for violating a papal enclosure. The friars did it without asking for permission. Non-Christians who observed their courage and their compassion have great respect for them and trust them.

In Israel and Jordan, Muslims, Christians and Jews also have a great deal of respect for the friars and trust them. They do not take sides and they bring people from all three groups together to work for the good of the entire community.

It’s the Fundamentalists and the terrorists who hate the friars, because the friars are a contradiction to everything they try to preach about Catholicism. For the friars, welcoming all of these folks to Assisi has been part of their everyday life. It reinforces trust in the mind of non-Christians. Unless you have trust, you’re not going to have converts. You certainly are not going to have peace. Peace is the purpose of these gatherings. This being the week of the 785 anniversary of St. Francis’ entrance into glory, let us take his example and trust the popes as he did. God knows that the popes of his time could be rascals.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Well said, every word.

 

[dixieagle]

I don’t think that gathering religious leaders of the world to remind the world that we can and should live in peace is a waste of time. It’s a very visual lesson.

One of the great doctors of the Franciscan Order, Lawrence of Brindisi, once said that those who choose to be scandalized are more guilty than those who inadvertently scandalize. The former are choosing a wrong, the latter have no malicious intent. The problem with those who choose to be scandalized is that they spread scandal. As St. Lawrence would tell us, we have the power to choose what will scandalize us and what will not.

The bold is mine. We cannot tell people that they are going to hell, because we have no way of knowing who goes to hell. We know what grave sin is, but we don’t know what happens at the subjective level.

An invitation to come to the fullness of Christianity is a good thing. A threat to that if you don’t you’ll go to hell, is not prudent. We cannot predict it and those who have used such rhetoric in the past did not achieve the desired result. Finally, you don’t go to Assisi to say something that Francis would never say.

The reason that Assisi was chosen for these gatherings was because of Francis deep compassion and respect for people of all faiths and his desire for peace between Christians and Muslims. Let us not forget that he founded the first canonical Catholic jurisdiction in Muslim territory with the explicit command to his brothers not to try to convert the Muslims and Jews. This jurisdiction was elevated to a papal custody to this day, which the Franciscan Friars still run. That’s the Custody of the Holy Land. Francis’ command to the friars was to preach the Gospel through humility, kindness, poverty, obedience, and fraternity toward all and let God do the rest. They were to serve the material needs of all men, the spiritual needs of Christians and to invite others to the Gospel, but to avoid all conflicts. He gave them very strict orders to avoid all kinds of arguments over religion at the risk of being dismissed from the order.

I believe that along with the fact that Francis was the man who preached peace between people of different faiths, another reason for choosing Assisi is because Franciscans have earned the trust of peoples of other faiths. Many friars gave their lives in China, India, the Middle East and the Americas. They were unjustly accused of trying to proselytize. Over the centuries, many intelligent non-Christians in these countries have admitted that the Franciscans were truly innocent of violating their laws and that the killings were politically motivated in the name of religion. This gained the respect from Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims. Many Muslims still venerate Francis of Assisi as a Sufi. According to Islam, a Sufi is “one whose objective is the reparation of the heart and turning it away from all else but God. The Sufi knows how to travel into the presence of the Divine, purify one’s inner self from filth, and beautify it with a variety of virtues.”

If you’re going to invite non-Christians to a place where they will feel safe and a place for which they feel respect and warmth, Assisi is perfect, because Francis and his sons are well respected by non-Christians as men of peace.

With that historical background, I trust the Holy Fathers’ judgment in calling people of different faiths to convocation for peace in Assisi.

The one thing that many people may not know about Assisi and about the Franciscans is that Assisi, since the erection of the Franciscan Order has become a Mecca of sorts for people of many faiths. The friars have made it a point of being welcoming and not interfering in the religious beliefs of the pilgrims who come to venerate and honor Francis. In fact, during WW II, the friars violated only God knows how many Church laws, to hide Jews in Assisi. They did everything from writing false baptism and ordination certificates for Jews, to hiding men and women in monasteries that had papal enclosures. According to Canon Law, you are excommunicated for violating a papal enclosure. The friars did it without asking for permission. Non-Christians who observed their courage and their compassion have great respect for them and trust them.

In Israel and Jordan, Muslims, Christians and Jews also have a great deal of respect for the friars and trust them. They do not take sides and they bring people from all three groups together to work for the good of the entire community.

It’s the Fundamentalists and the terrorists who hate the friars, because the friars are a contradiction to everything they try to preach about Catholicism. For the friars, welcoming all of these folks to Assisi has been part of their everyday life. It reinforces trust in the mind of non-Christians. Unless you have trust, you’re not going to have converts. You certainly are not going to have peace. Peace is the purpose of these gatherings. This being the week of the 785 anniversary of St. Francis’ entrance into glory, let us take his example and trust the popes as he did. God knows that the popes of his time could be rascals.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I think you’re my favorite poster, Brother JR Beautifully said, as always.

 

[Shin]

‘All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!’

St. Francis of Assisi

‘If you do not wish to believe we will commend your soul to God because we declare that if you die while holding to your law you will be lost; God will not accept your soul. For this reason we have come to you.’

St. Francis of Assisi & Brother Illuminato, to the Sultan al-Kamil

'If I saw anyone about to fall into a pit or a fire, would I not run up to him and warn him, and do all in my power to help him from falling in? Why should I not do this much to keep sinners from falling into the pit and fires of Hell?

Neither can I understand why other priests who believe the selfsame truths as I do, as we all must do, do not preach or exhort their flock so that they might avoid this unbearable eternity of Hell. It is still a source of wonder to me how the laity – those men and women blessed with the Faith – do not give warning to those who need it. If a house were to catch fire in the middle of the night, and if the inhabitants of the same house and the other townsfolk were asleep and did not see the danger, would not the one who first noticed it shout and run along the streets, exclaiming: “Fire! Fire! In that house over there!” Then why should there not be a warning of eternal fire to waken those who are drifting in the sleep of sin in such a way that when they open their eyes they will find themselves burning in the eternal flames of Hell?’

St. Anthony Mary Claret

‘Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.’

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

‘Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.’

Galatians 5:19-21

I hope that someday before long scriptures and their plain sense in however many words will be allowed to be, and be the more spoken of before the general public again.

 

[JReducation]

‘All who have not believed that Jesus Christ was really the Son of God are doomed. Also all who see the Sacrament of the Body of Christ and do not believe it is really the most holy Body and Blood of the Lord . . . these also are doomed!’

St. Francis of Assisi

‘If you do not wish to believe we will commend your soul to God because we declare that if you die while holding to your law you will be lost; God will not accept your soul. For this reason we have come to you.’

St. Francis of Assisi & Brother Illuminato, to the Sultan al-Kamil

'If I saw anyone about to fall into a pit or a fire, would I not run up to him and warn him, and do all in my power to help him from falling in? Why should I not do this much to keep sinners from falling into the pit and fires of Hell?

Neither can I understand why other priests who believe the selfsame truths as I do, as we all must do, do not preach or exhort their flock so that they might avoid this unbearable eternity of Hell. It is still a source of wonder to me how the laity – those men and women blessed with the Faith – do not give warning to those who need it. If a house were to catch fire in the middle of the night, and if the inhabitants of the same house and the other townsfolk were asleep and did not see the danger, would not the one who first noticed it shout and run along the streets, exclaiming: “Fire! Fire! In that house over there!” Then why should there not be a warning of eternal fire to waken those who are drifting in the sleep of sin in such a way that when they open their eyes they will find themselves burning in the eternal flames of Hell?’

St. Anthony Mary Claret

‘Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.’

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

‘Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.’

Galatians 5:19-21

I hope that someday before long scriptures and their plain sense in however many words will be allowed to be, and be the more spoken of before the general public again.

As usual Shin, you’re quoting the saints out of context. I’m not going to buy into it. Sorry.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Shin]

I am afraid that is exactly what I always make the most effort to not do, so, barring any real evidence, and in light of the overwhelming evidence otherwise, I am afraid I have to say you are incorrect and I hope and pray someday you realize it.

 

[JReducation]

I would like to clarify something, because I don’t like it when saints are quoted out of context to fit our purposes, especially when it’s something that I know, from my own studies of theology that it’s an incorrect use of hagiography.

A day or two ago, someone posted a quote in which St. Francis allegedly told the Sultan that he would go to hell if he did not convert to Christianity. It is true that this quote appears in the writings on one of the early hagiographers. However, Franciscan scholars who devote their lives to the study of Francis, his work and his theology find this quote problematic on several counts and have concluded that it is hagiographical embellishment in order to defend Francis against accusations of heresy. There were many heretics at the time of Francis. Many of them lived lives very similar to that of Francis. They were often penitents and itinerant preachers, but heretics nonetheless. The hagiographers found it necessary to insert into their stories any element that they could use to ensure that Francis was not misunderstood and believed to be a heretic.

Here is the reason why this quote is unlikely. Francis did not convert the Sultan. However, we have it on the Sultan’s word that he (the Sultan) was impressed by Francis’ holiness. The Sultan would later write about Francis and we have those letters. In those letters, he refers to Francis as the Sufi from Assisi. Sufi, is an Islamic term for a holy man. The Sufis were an actual group of Islamic contemplatives, very similar to our monks and hermits. It is very unlikely that the Sultan would have held Francis is such high respect if he had threatened him with eternal damnation. The more probable result would have been that Francis would have lost his head.

We still have the letter of transit that the Sultan gave to Francis, which allowed Francis and his brothers free and safe passage through what is today Egypt and Jordan over to Jerusalem and permission to establish houses in Jerusalem. Francis apparently failed to convert the Sultan. For all we know, the Sultan may have been converted after Francis’ departure, because he did not forget him, as is evident from the fact that years later he would mention him in his writings. However, a Sultan who has been offended by a Christian who has strolled into his camp in the middle of war is not going to give him free and safe passage and permission to establish houses, if he has been threatened with eternal damnation.

The proof of the letter of transit is the existence of the letter and the existence of the Franciscan Province of Jerusalem which was founded three-years later. Pope Gregory IX would eventually elevate it to a Papal Custody that answers to the Holy See, to this day. The friars have enjoyed free passage through Egypt, Jordan and Palestine for 800 years and have many houses in that region.

There is also the letter of erection from Francis to the first friars to travel to Jerusalem. In the letter he commissions the friars to care for the spiritual needs of the Christians, to treat the Jews and Muslims with great respect, to avoid making enemies of them by trying to convert them, to avoid engaging in argumentation, because it would endanger the lives of innocent people (mostly Christians) and because the friars were to be gentle and peaceful. This message against argumentation is a frequent theme in Francis’ admonitions. It is found in several of his writings.

He also enjoined the friars to preach the Gospel by their lives of charity, prayer, penance, brotherhood and service. This too is a frequent statement by Francis. It appears in several of his writings and in commentaries by more than one biographer. “Preach always; when necessary, use words.” There is also, “Let you’re walking be your preaching.”

It is very conceivable that Francis did talk to the Sultan about Christ. He went there for that purpose. But before leaving Assisi, he had made it clear that his mission had two objectives. He wanted to convert the Saracens out of love for them and he knew that if he converted them, he could also bring an end to the war. The second part is very important. Francis was not a fool. You don’t bring an end to a war by walking into a Sultan’s tent firing your guns with threats of hell and damnation.

Francis’ introductory greeting, which has been quoted to us by one of the friars who was present and later by the Sultan is an interesting one. When the Sultan asked Francis if he had come in the name of the Christian Church, Francis neither denied nor affirmed it. This is important. This is a diplomatic ploy. Instead, he said, “I have come in the name of Jesus Christ . . . “ and proceeded to persuade the Sultan that Jesus was the Son of God and he preached to the Sultan on the great love of Christ for him and his people. He also preached to the Sultan on the importance of conversion from sin and turning toward Christ. This is believeable. This would have been no surprise to the Sultan and seems to have attracted his attention rather than offend him.

Francis had no intention of staying with the Sultan as his guest. However, the Sultan insisted and they visited for five days and the writer who was there and the Sultan say the same thing. The Sultan enjoyed the exchange, held Francis in great admiration and said that if all Christians were as peaceful and as noble as Francis, he would believe.

 

[JReducation]

There is another indicator that Francis made no such threat of eternal damnation. The Sultan gave Francis a gift. It was a horn that had been crafted for him (Francis). Sultans did not make a habit out of giving Christians such gifts. The horn is visible at the Basilica of St. Francis. What is most interesting is that Francis used the horn to warn the Sultan when the Christian troops deceived him. They sent an envoy of peace. While the Sultan and his ministers were distracted discussing the proposal, the Cardinal who was in charge of that crusade ordered an attack on Dalmietta. Francis saw the slaughter that was going to happen. He stood on a hill and flew the horn to alarm the Muslims and then proceeded to Jerusalem. The Christian lost the battle and lost Jerusalem. Francis was not willing to tolerate such an aggressive and treacherous action, even for the sake of obtaining Jerusalem. The honor of the Gospel was much more important to him than the glory of war. He understood the difference between those who fought to liberate the Holy Land and those who fought for their personal gain. This is why he responds to the Sultan, “I have come in the name of Jesus Christ.” He wants to make sure that his mission is not confused with those who fought for political gain and control. The 800 year presence of Franciscans in the region and their success in raising up ministries and services for the Jews, Muslims and Christians speak to Francis’ effort. At no time during this 800 year history has the Catholic Church ever asked the friars to convert the Muslims or Jews. This was long before anyone could even spell the word ecumenism.

One last piece of information. Friars were killed by Muslims who traveled through the Western part of Africa on their way to the Holy Land. They were killed in what is today Morocco and Libya. These friars did threaten the local Muslims with hell and damnation. They were accused of offending the Prophet Mohammed and offending Islam and killed. Their bodies were taken back to Portugal. We have the testimony of St. Anthony of Padua, who was then a an Augustinian Canon living in Lisbon. He witness the funeral of the friars and heard the story from first-hand witnesses.

In light of the fact that the statement about Francis threatening the Sultan with hell and damnation is mentioned only once, given the threat of confusing Francis with heretics, because he had sent friars to the Holy Land with a commission to avoid any overt attempts to convert Muslims and Jews, and the fact that only one writer mentions this alleged statement, and given the respect of the Sultan and the Muslims and Jews of the area for the friars and for Francis, Franciscans believe that these were not Francis’ words. They are hagiographic embellishment to protect his reputation. People than, as today, could very easily conclude that Francis was not a good Christian, since he did not aggressively seek to convert non-Christians and forbade his friars from engaging in such aggressive campaigns.

Finally, history has proven that Franciscans have been very hard on Catholics. We have even sent Catholics to the gallows and threatened many with eternal damnation, even excommunicated some of our own. Today we have dismissed entire groups of friars who have disobeyed Francis and his successors and had them excommunicated in recent times, such as the Capuchins in Mormon, France. But we have always protected the non-Christians from bullying by Catholic mimssionaries in China, Africa, India, and the Americas. Our policy has always been to be demanding on Catholics and go easy on non-Christians. Catholics should know better, while non-Catholics must be brought around through gentleness and peaceful relationships. Which makes Francis’ tomb and the motherhouse of the Franciscan order a perfect place to convoke a gathering for peace among all peoples.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[hudson]

One of the great doctors of the Franciscan Order, Lawrence of Brindisi, once said that those who choose to be scandalized are more guilty than those who inadvertently scandalize. The former are choosing a wrong, the latter have no malicious intent. The problem with those who choose to be scandalized is that they spread scandal. As St. Lawrence would tell us, we have the power to choose what will scandalize us and what will not.

How can the Assisi meetings inadvertently scandalize? If your statement were true, every scandal that ever occurs would be inadvertent. If this were the case, only the scandalized would be the cause of scandal. We are not choosing to be scandalized. The events that occurred at the previous Assisi meetings were the complete cause of scandal, not something the scandalized did. In my opinion, that is such a backwards argument, I don’t even know what else to say about it.

*The bold is mine. We cannot tell people that they are going to hell, because we have no way of knowing who goes to hell. We know what grave sin is, but we don’t know what happens at the subjective level. *

This is true, but the Church does know what actions lead a person to hell and what actions save a person. We know that salvation is guaranteed by following all teachings of Christs Church. There can be a hope that salvation can be gained through ignorance of Christ and his Church, but it is only a hope. Why would a Pope go to this meeting and actually encourage believers of false religions to continue in their path instead of clearly calling these people to convert to the true Catholic faith? The meeting is mostly about peace between religions. The peace spoke about at Mass is predicated on Christ. Pope Pius XI taught in Christ is the salvation of the individual. In Christ is the salvation of society. No one knows how this meeting will go down, so I will pray for Pope Benedict.

By the way I do enjoy your posts and even when I disagree with things you say, I respect your opinions.

 

[pnewton]

The bold is mine. We cannot tell people that they are going to hell, because we have no way of knowing who goes to hell. We know what grave sin is, but we don’t know what happens at the subjective level.

That one sentence bothered me too. After all, don’t we all risk Hell? As St. Paul put it, if anyone thinks he stands, let him take heed lest he fall. In other words, don’t be too cocky in your ability to guess at ultimate judgment.

 

[JReducation]

The Church has to proclaim the Gospel. There is no denial of this. Hiowever, there are two important points that we must remember. We don’t know who goes to hell and who does not. We only know objective right and wrong. That’st the most that the Church cant teach. In other words, the Church can point to what is right and to what is wrong.

There is a second point that is equally important. This is context. There each event has a context or a purpose. The purpose of this event is not to catechize. The purpose of this event it to bring people of all faiths together as a call to peace. Diplomatically, it would be a disaster to call the world’s religious leaders and tell them that everything they believe is wrong. The good that is intended by the gathering would go right down the drain.

There are other times and opportunities for the Church to speak about truth and Christ. She has done so verywell. Anyone who has read Crossing The Threshold of Hope will see how this is candidly, but politely addressed by the Holy Father. This is not the only work in which this has been done. In this work in particular, the pope speaks to and about pagan religious beliefs.

We don’t call people in to embarass them or to threaten them. This is not the way of St. Francis. The reason for choosing Assisi was because the pope wanted to deliberately use St. Francis’ method of evangelization through peaceful co-existence. This is a very ancient tradition that goes back 800 years and seems to have worked better than in your face preaching. The Franciscans have had more success with pagans than any other group of missionaries, starting with earning trust. This is what the pope is going for.

We need to trust these men instead of second-guessing them or criticizing every step they take. That does not help. The pope is not going to listen, because he’s not interested in what we have to say on this matter. As the Vatican said, this is his ministry and it’s very important to him. We owe him support.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[OraLabora]

We don’t call people in to embarass them or to threaten them. This is not the way of St. Francis. The reason for choosing Assisi was because the pope wanted to deliberately use St. Francis’ method of evangelization through peaceful co-existence. This is a very ancient tradition that goes back 800 years and seems to have worked better than in your face preaching.

Thank you for your level-headedness on this topic. Benedictines and St. Francis have this method of evangelizing in common!

I work with Muslims every day in my office, a big software development shop in Montreal. Oddly, the people I seem to get along with best are not the secularized ex-Catholics, but the Muslims. Our faith walks share many common elements. We even talk about it amongst ourselves. We don’t try to proselytize. We don’t discuss doctrine. I work very closely with one Muslim colleague, and she keeps an eye out for me at Lent and I do the same for her at Ramadan, done in good humour. She was the one, during a noon walk together, who told me that the company had a prayer and meditation room I could use to recite the LOTH during my workday. We have nothing to fear from each other, much to learn. I have more in common with her and my other Muslim colleagues than our very secularized, even anti-Catholic, native Quebecers. We are the small core of active believers that have a place for God in our lives.

I believe other faiths should be are allies, against an increasingly secularized state. They needn’t be our enemies, unless one side makes it so. Scandal, as you point out, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you for your level-headedness on this topic. Benedictines and St. Francis have this method of evangelizing in common!

I work with Muslims every day in my office, a big software development shop in Montreal. Oddly, the people I seem to get along with best are not the secularized ex-Catholics, but the Muslims. Our faith walks share many common elements. We even talk about it amongst ourselves. We don’t try to proselytize. We don’t discuss doctrine. I work very closely with one Muslim colleague, and she keeps an eye out for me at Lent and I do the same for her at Ramadan, done in good humour. She was the one, during a noon walk together, who told me that the company had a prayer and meditation room I could use to recite the LOTH during my workday. We have nothing to fear from each other, much to learn. I have more in common with her and my other Muslim colleagues than our very secularized, even anti-Catholic, native Quebecers. We are the small core of active believers that have a place for God in our lives.

I believe other faiths should be are allies, against an increasingly secularized state. They needn’t be our enemies, unless one side makes it so. Scandal, as you point out, is in the eye of the beholder.

LOL, of course the Franciscan approach is going to sound Benedictine, Francis was educated by the Benedictines of Mt Subiaco. The point is during their 800 year presence in the Middle East, they have made many converts; but these cannot be made public, because it can be dangerous to the converts The process is slow and very diplomatic. You begin with establishing trust, from there you build on peaceful co-existence. You inivte, but you don’t push. You wait for the person to ask.

Now, this is not the way that Franciscans use with Catholics. St. Clare was very clear that Catholics were at greater risk than Muslims. The approach with Catholics has alwasy been very direct, look a people like Mother Angelica or the Franciscans on TV. No one has ever heard them say anything to or about Jews, Muslims or other non-Christians. That’s not the way of Francis and Clare toward non-Christians. The Franciscan way is to build a relationship of peace and go from there, one step at a time.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[hudson]

In my opinion the meeting causes confusion for people. The perception that a lot of people get from these meetings is that the Pope is advocating relativism and syncretism. For many people perception is reality even if the intended goal is something completely different. In my opinion if they must meet, it should be without religious services of any kind. These services can be construed by people as giving tacit approval of false gods and religions.

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

I said risk damnation, not that damnation was certain.

Abiding by the doctrines of the Catholic Church guarantees salvation. Going any other way, except the Orthodox, does not.

St. Francis was not Pope. He was free to act as he saw fit, I guess. A Pope being photographed on friendly terms with non-believers, even praying in their temples, is not helping our cause on the ground.

I have had conversations with one Muslim and one Protestant in which the first was happy to tell me that “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” had changed and that this proved ours was not the true faith, if it was so elastic. He gave me a lecture on how the Koran, their ulimate authority, had not changed one bit, and was entirely internally consistent.

The Protestant was happy to point out that, given the changes of the past 40 years, we’d surely have women priests etc, soon. It’s hard to dispute when I saw a priest I know being photographed with a female vicar dressed almost exactly as he was at public event: what a joke!

There’s Christian Charity and then there’s merely soft-soaping people. We’ve had too much of the latter. I find people like directness, myself.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

In my opinion the meeting causes confusion for people. The perception that a lot of people get from these meetings is that the Pope is advocating relativism and syncretism. For many people perception is reality even if the intended goal is something completely different. In my opinion if they must meet, it should be without religious services of any kind. These services can be construed by people as giving tacit approval of false gods and religions.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, too many Catholics do not know their faith enough and will assume all sorts of things. Ecumenism has lost its meaning these days and things have gone out of hand. (For example, just yesterday I saw leaflets promoting a course on Sufism in a jesuit church.) On the other hand, I’m sure pope Benedict will make things clear and will not scandalise the faithful by kissing pagan books. I trust he will do things properly, as he always does, but I still worry about the impression people will get, ie. that all religions are equal.

 

[OraLabora]

I agree with this. Unfortunately, too many Catholics do not know their faith enough and will assume all sorts of things. Ecumenism has lost its meaning these days and things have gone out of hand. (For example, just yesterday I saw leaflets promoting a course on Sufism in a jesuit church.) On the other hand, I’m sure pope Benedict will make things clear and will not scandalise the faithful by kissing pagan books. I trust he will do things properly, as he always does, but I still worry about the impression people will get, ie. that all religions are equal.

The meeting doesn’t appear to be exclusively ecumenism (dialogue between Christians) but inter-religious dialogue (dialogue between major faith traditions, e.g. Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc.)

You’ll probably be scandalized to learn that Benedictine monks teach the Koran to Muslims in Senegal, because the Muslims cannot read arabic and the monks can.

I bet most Catholics haven’t even heard of these meetings. I’m well-read and I hadn’t until I read it here. In any event I trust the Holy Father knows what he’s doing and has concluded that more good than bad will come out of the meeting. Since none of us here have any influence on what he does, it’s a moot point. He’s going to go and we’ll just have to live with the decision.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

You’ll probably be scandalized to learn that Benedictine monks teach the Koran to Muslims in Senegal, because the Muslims cannot read arabic and the monks can.

Since none of us here have any influence on what he does, it’s a moot point. He’s going to go and we’ll just have to live with the decision.

You are right, I find the above scandalous. Why not teach people to read instead, so they can study the books of their choice?

And yes, the pope will do as he pleases and we will have to live with it. But we are allowed to express an opinion about it. I hope.

 

[hudson]

What if a country full of devil worshipers couldn’t read? Are we to go there and teach the words of the devil to them to make them happy? That is absurd.

 

[OraLabora]

You are right, I find the above scandalous. Why not teach people to read instead, so they can study the books of their choice?

They do ALL their schooling. They’re the only people qualified to do so in their area. It will probably scandalize you even more to learn that missionaries don’t generally proselytize. They go to foreign lands to educate (and feed, clothe, provide medical care), and carry out the Gospel message themselves. That includes teaching other faith traditions.