Pope explains why he is going to Assisi-III

[hudson]

I say we sit back and seek peace with all these different religions while Catholicism/Christianity fades in Europe. All the while Muslims take over traditionally Catholic strongholds. What is happening would be akin to Catholics going to a peace meeting from leaders of Jewish and Muslim faiths all the while invading their countries and changing them from the inside. Do you honestly believe they would stand for that. Heck no! What has happened in the past 50 years is not working. Westerners no longer feel a sense of importance in their faith. Making it seem Catholicism is no more important then every other religion is one of the main causes of this in my opinion. Going back to the old ways may not win us many friends with other religions, but I bet you it would win back tons of people that the faith has lost.

 

[Ahimsa]

What is happening would be akin to Catholics going to a peace meeting from leaders of Jewish…faiths all the while invading their countries and changing them from the inside.

Jews are invading Europe?

 

[JReducation]

Where exactly are your sources from to say that St. Xavier was unsuccessful the first time? From what I know, he had great success in Goa from the day he landed.

Actually, I learned this from the Jesuits. Fr. Mitch Pacwa and another Jesuit who is not as famous, so I don’t recall his name, did a wonderful historical program on Francis Xavier. They gave out these details with letters written by Francis himself.

I think you must be a Franciscan. But I find it a bit annoying that you want to present your order and founder as more superior to that of other saints.

Yes, I am Franciscan, but your statement is based on a misunderstanding. I have not said that Francis of Assisi is superior to any other saint. Every saint has his own gifts and is a unique person. Just an aside, yes the Church has dubbed St. Francis as: The Perfect Christian, The Seraphic Father, The Mirror of Perfection and recently Pope Benedict said of him, "The Living Example of the First Beatitude. The man has quite a reputation in the Church and has been highly respected by many great saints and great missionaries, among them Francis Xavier and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

See, this is even more confusing.

Do you think it right to convert by helping someone during time of need? I happened to have lived in many countries in South Asia and I can tell you that this is something we really look down upon.

It is a major tactic used by Protestant missionaries today. They come and set-up their churches with their money and then they go around giving money to people. In return, they “suggest” them to come and attend their churches. Some of these pastors agree to give them good jobs abroad if they agree to convert etc. Maybe it is usual in the West but for us its an insult to our intelligence. At times they would succeed with young people who given their poor conditions do succumb. In countries like Sri Lanka, they had to pass laws to prevent this kind of conversion. Their parents suffer great deal in seeing their children leave their Catholic faith.

What is the merit of converting to a religion because the follower seems to help you out when you need assistance?

Neither Franciscans, Jesuits,Missionaries of Charity, Maryknoll, Dominicans, Missionaries of the Poor or Medical Mission Sisters ever ask anyone to become Catholic because we help them. Did you ever hear of Mother Teresa asking anyone to become Catholic? Yet, are you aware of how many men and women became Catholic influenced by her work and presence?

You’ll never see or hear a Benedictine ask anyone to become Catholic, nor a Trappist or a Cistercian or any of the orders that follow the Benedictine Rule. The reason is simple. Converting others was not the mandate that Benedict, Albert and Francis gave to their followers. The mandate was brotherhood, prayer, poverty, asceticism, service, hospitality and unquestioning obedience to the pope and bishops.

It seems like an emotional ploy which tries to grow in a person a sense of owing to listen to the giver. It might work for Franciscans but it also works for Muslims, Budhists, Hindus and Sales people. So it doesn’t really give valid reason for anyone with an intelligent mind to convert.

You may want to read up on the lives of men and women such as: St. Camilus, St. John of God, St. John de Matha, St. John Baptist de La Salle, St.Vincent de Paul, St. Louise de Marillac, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, Bl. Mother Teresa, Bl. Charles de Facould, St. Frances Cabrini, St. Katherine Drexel, St. Damien the Leper and other great missionaries.

None of these men and women ever set out to convert anyone. They set out to do two things:

a) To live the gospel among the poor as one of them.

b) To serve the poor

c) To preach the Gospel by their example.

They always welcomed and taught the inquierer. They never hid or denied their faith in Christ when serving non-beleivers.

If you go to Jerusalem, you’ll find the friars very involved in serving the needs of Christians in that city. If you go to Calcutta you’ll find the Missionaries of Charity praying the rosary as they walk the streets. If you go to any place where there is a Benedictine house, you’ll find a great abbey church in the middle of the complex which shouts out, Catholic.

I would rather people be honest with us. Give us the facts. You can give us help but not to convert us.

We’re very honest, just as I’m being honest with you. You ask and we respond. You need help, we provide that too. The one is not contingent on the other. We do not buy conversions. There is a story that I never tire of repeating.

On three separate occasions Francis left the friar priest without a missal. You have to understand that Franciscans are not priests. There are about 40% who are priests. Most are not. Priesthood was never a requirement nor the intention of the founder. Therefore, it didn’t matter to Francis whether they had mass in the house or they went to the nearest parish or whether the friar who was a priest said mass or not, as long as everyone go to go to some mass.

On two separate occasions Francis sold the missal, because it was the only thing of value that they had, in order to feed the poor. On a third occasion, He simply gave the woman the missal and told her to sell it and keep the mony. He never asked any of these folks to sit down for a catechism lesson. You don’t feed Christ in the distressing disguise of the poor with conditions attached. You feed him without conditions, out of pure love.

 

[hudson]

Jews are invading Europe?

Nice job misquoting me and making it seem I am saying something I am not. You may want to look into the 9th Commandment. I was referring to the middle east, which as you know has Jews and Muslims.

 

[JReducation]

Is it really not the Catholic way? Was the Apostolic way only good for those who lived in the Bible days?

I think I’m going to research a book on the Catholic missionaries, including the ones who lost their lives, throughout the ages. If anyone can recommend such a book, I would appreciate it.

I think that as was answered above, the Catholic way adapts to different times and situations. Remember that most of your missionaries are members of religious orders. Their primary duty is to obey their founder. They will use whatever methods their founder gave them for saving souls. Those may be as varied as teaching and preaching, which the Jesuits and Dominicans do or simple being present without saying a word until you’re asked, as Carmelites Benedictines and Franciscans do. They all have their merit and they’re all very powerful. Then you have other methods in between, such as that used by Mother Teresa and her missionaries, which has been very effective in alleviating Christ’s sufferings and has brought many to Catholicism with very simple words from the Missionary Sisters and Brothers of that congregation.

I remember reading that Bishop Fulton Sheen made all of his conversions by answering people’s questions. He did not go out after them. When they inquired,he answered them. He had a weekly spot on TV, which had a huge audience. There have been others before him and after him who have used the media very well: Fr. Peyton, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Mother Angelica, Fr. Mitch Pacwa, Fr. Benedict G., Brother Leo, Scott Hahn and others.

There are different ways of evangelizing is what I’m trying to say. They will be more in the future.

As I told the young brothers in our formation program.

"You have to read the memo. They kill Christians in many countries. Usually, because someone feels threatened or offended. Therefore, the Holy Father is not going to invite the religious leaders of the world for tea in Assisi to tell them how wrong they are. That kind of insult would be enough to cause a bloodshed of major proportiions.

On the flipside, governments and military don’t seem to have a grasp on the violence against innocent people of all faiths. It just varies from one country to another. Maybe, if the religious leaders, whom the people still trust, if these men and women become very convinced of the need to preach peae to their people and to preach tolerance and dialogue . . . then maybe we can reduce persecution and get closer to eliminating it.

People have to understand what’s at risk if the pope gets up and tells every Iman how wrong he is. The insult will be so great that Catholics will not be safe anywhere.

We Catholics tend to be a little naive, because we are part of a Church that is very kind to us. We can go on the Internet, TV, newspaper and rallies and badmouth our pope, bishops, Catholic institutions, religious orders and we get away with it, because the rest of the Catholics around us don’t give a darn if you insult a priest or religious. “It’s all part of democracy”.

These other folks are not like Catholics. To a certain extent, Catholics are indifferent toward their own. Catholics are the first to attack their own clergy and leaders. People of other faiths do not do that. They have all kinds of issues between them and they even shoot at each other. However, if an outsider offends them, they unite and they respond, not with words either. In many places, it’s with violence.

It’s the same thing with civil governments. Why do you think that the Catholic Church does not confront N. Korea, China and Vietnam? Because there are lives at risk.

Conversion has to come through friendship, not antagonism or confrontation. The onlty thing that we create is martyrs. No one has the right to put another person’s life, property and rights at risk.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Ahimsa]

I was referring to the middle east, which as you know has Jews and Muslims.

I thought you were referring to Europe, since it was the only geographical region you mentioned:
I say we sit back and seek peace with all these different religions while Catholicism/Christianity fades in Europe. All the while Muslims take over traditionally Catholic strongholds.

 

[hudson]

I thought you were referring to Europe, since it was the only geographical region you mentioned:
I say we sit back and seek peace with all these different religions while Catholicism/Christianity fades in Europe. All the while Muslims take over traditionally Catholic strongholds.

I say we sit back and seek peace with all these different religions while Catholicism/Christianity fades in Europe. All the while Muslims take over traditionally Catholic strongholds. What is happening would be akin to Catholics going to a peace meeting from leaders of Jewish and Muslim faiths all the while invading their countries and changing them from the inside. Do you honestly believe they would stand for that.

Read the whole thing especially where I mention “their countries” You obviously don’t like what i had to say, to bad.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Are the Franciscans still in charge of this event, as they were in 86?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I know a couple where the husband is a very devout Lutheran and the wife is a very devout Catholic. They have four children. Two are Capuchin Franciscan Friars, one is a Sister of Mercy. The youngest is a good Catholic mother.

I believe that when there is love of God and love for each other, people can make it work.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I agree.

Do Wiccans pray to the same God when they pray to the Lord and Lady?

How about Pagans who honor Sekhmet, the lion headed “mistress of death and dread who gives life eternally…”?

The difference there is that Muslims deliberately direct their prayers and worship to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Who happens to be the true God. Muslims also believe what we believe about that God - i.e. transcendence, divine simplicity, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc.

Muslims don’t worship anything with a lion’s head. They don’t pray to some Lord-and-Lady divine couple. They pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - transcendent, supreme, incorporeal, infinitely perfect.

If I was a Muslim, the reason I would convert is IF & ONLY IF someone could tell me why my religion is false OR Christianity is true (then Islam is automatically proven false).

That strategy is a little off because it’s not entirely accurate: Islam isn’t just plain “false.” It has a mixture of truth and falsehood. The pope’s strategy in something like Assisi III seems to be that we can use the truths we share - the common ground - to build a better world together and halt the advance of secularism.

Hopefully, as happens with the Franciscans, the good example set by Christians will cause non-Christians to investigate whether there really is something to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I say we sit back and seek peace with all these different religions while Catholicism/Christianity fades in Europe. All the while Muslims take over traditionally Catholic strongholds. What is happening would be akin to Catholics going to a peace meeting from leaders of Jewish and Muslim faiths all the while invading their countries and changing them from the inside. Do you honestly believe they would stand for that. Heck no! What has happened in the past 50 years is not working. Westerners no longer feel a sense of importance in their faith. Making it seem Catholicism is no more important then every other religion is one of the main causes of this in my opinion. Going back to the old ways may not win us many friends with other religions, but I bet you it would win back tons of people that the faith has lost.

Have you read a word JReducation has written? For the Franciscans, it’s not some newfangled, modernist strategy from “the past 50 years” but is rather as old as the Crusades - and considerably more successful.

“The old ways” get the Christians killed or driven out, and then they’re gone from the area. The Franciscan way, for the last 800 years, has ensured a Christian presence - and a very holy one at that - in the Holy Land. So yes, let’s talk about results…

 

[Melchior_1]

I think you must be a Franciscan. But I find it a bit annoying that you want to present your order and founder as more superior to that of other saints.

Franciscans have so much respect for St. Dominic that he is also their Holy Father, and vice-versa. I’ve asked Brother JR several questions about both Saints, and he’s had nothing but praise for both, and has done an incredible amount helping me with my vocation towards the Lay Dominicans.

Which actually dovetails nicely with what this thread is all about. During a time of intense trial and turbulence, the Church was in near shambles. Two men, Francis and Dominic, founded their orders at the same time. The two orders compliment each other wonderfully. They both knew what the other was doing and had great respect for each other.

An example of how things can work; the Franciscans set up shop some place. They serve the poor by doing acts of mercy and charity. When asked questions they answer them and continue to do what they do. Eventually, either they will want more knowledge or possibly get back on their feet and no longer be poor. In both of those cases, the person will probably see a Dominican, who works with all manner of classes (poor, rich, middle, lower, upper) and has spent that time studying what the local culture is, what the belief systems are, and working up ways how he (or she if it’s a consecrated lady or layperson) can break down Catholicism in a way the other person can understand.

Something like Assisi is perfect for Franciscans, and sets the stage for others to eventually come in and assist. Dominicans specialize in preaching, but the soil needs to be right for the fruit to grow. Through the work of the hosts (and others) at this event, we could easily see other orders eventually gaining a foothold there.

 

[hudson]

Have you read a word JReducation has written? For the Franciscans, it’s not some newfangled, modernist strategy from “the past 50 years” but is rather as old as the Crusades - and considerably more successful.

“The old ways” get the Christians killed or driven out, and then they’re gone from the area. The Franciscan way, for the last 800 years, has ensured a Christian presence - and a very holy one at that - in the Holy Land. So yes, let’s talk about results…

How is that working in Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc? I sure am reading a lot about Christians getting driven out, killed, rights trampled on in these countries. So when you say “the old ways” get the Christians killed or driven out, I see the same or worse with this other way. Some times you must stand up for what you believe.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

This thread is fascinating! Thanks all for contributing so much insight.

 

[Ahimsa]

Read the whole thing especially where I mention “their countries” You obviously don’t like what i had to say, to bad.

OK, my bad. I misunderstood. The “their” in “their countries” seemed to refer to “Catholics” and Catholic countries like Spain and France, especially since you talk about someone invading Europe and Christianity fading in Europe.

I say we sit back and seek peace with all these different religions while Catholicism/Christianity fades in Europe. All the while Muslims take over traditionally Catholic strongholds. What is happening would be akin to Catholics going to a peace meeting from leaders of Jewish and Muslim faiths all the while invading their countries and changing them from the inside. Do you honestly believe they would stand for that.

 

[hudson]

How is that working in Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc? I sure am reading a lot about Christians getting driven out, killed, rights trampled on in these countries. So when you say “the old ways” get the Christians killed or driven out, I see the same or worse with this other way. Some times you must stand up for what you believe.

All the while Catholicism is losing its strength in Europe and Islam is taking over. How can anyone see the way Western civilization has gone in the past 50 years and think we are heading in the right direction.

 

[OraLabora]

Who am I to say what the Holy Father should or should not attend?

All I can do is pray.

We shouldn’t be secluded in Catholic enclaves. We should go out and be with non-Christians in the same way Jesus ate with sinners that others shunned.

However, every opportunity among non-Catholics can be an opportunity to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It can be done in many ways, but I believe it should be clear that we adhere to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who is not just another prophet, but the Son of the Living God.

I do think that the leaders at Assisi will be pretty well informed about what Christians believe, if not in detail certainly in general. But as has been said, informing them about Christian beliefs is not the purpose of this meeting.

I work with Muslims, and they certainly know what a Christian believes, more or less. Oddly enough they are very respectful of my beliefs. More so that the old-stock Canadians that I work with that have Catholic ancestry but have since, in their generation, shrugged off all religion. Hell hath no fury like an evangelical Atheist. I should know, I used to be one.

I say we sit back and seek peace with all these different religions while Catholicism/Christianity fades in Europe. All the while Muslims take over traditionally Catholic strongholds. What is happening would be akin to Catholics going to a peace meeting from leaders of Jewish and Muslim faiths all the while invading their countries and changing them from the inside. Do you honestly believe they would stand for that. Heck no! What has happened in the past 50 years is not working. Westerners no longer feel a sense of importance in their faith. Making it seem Catholicism is no more important then every other religion is one of the main causes of this in my opinion. Going back to the old ways may not win us many friends with other religions, but I bet you it would win back tons of people that the faith has lost.

No, the main cause of this has been secularization. Decades before Muslim immigration began in Canada, Canadians were disassociating themselves from organized religion in droves. Quebec, the society I live in, was 90% Catholic. Now only a small minority are practicing Catholics. As a society, we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Muslims are merely showing up at the door still practicing their faith, and requesting the ability to continue practicing it.

On top of that our ditching religion has given us a birth rate below the replacement rate. So we need immigration so the next generation of immigrants can fund our pensions and social programs.

We are committing collective suicide. It’s got nothing to do with us saying Catholicism is equivalent to Islam. It has everything to do with us ditching Christianity before anyone showed up at the door to replace us. The trend in Western Europe is similar.

 

[Ahimsa]

An example of how things can work; the Franciscans set up shop some place. They serve the poor by doing acts of mercy and charity. When asked questions they answer them and continue to do what they do. Eventually, either they will want more knowledge or possibly get back on their feet and no longer be poor. In both of those cases, the person will probably see a Dominican, who works with all manner of classes (poor, rich, middle, lower, upper) and has spent that time studying what the local culture is, what the belief systems are, and working up ways how he (or she if it’s a consecrated lady or layperson) can break down Catholicism in a way the other person can understand.

When do the Jesuits come in?

 

[hudson]

No, the main cause of this has been secularization. Decades before Muslim immigration began in Canada, Canadians were disassociating themselves from organized religion in droves. Quebec, the society I live in, was 90% Catholic. Now only a small minority are practicing Catholics. As a society, we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Muslims are merely showing up at the door still practicing their faith, and requesting the ability to continue practicing it.

On top of that our ditching religion has given us a birth rate below the replacement rate. So we need immigration so the next generation of immigrants can fund our pensions and social programs.

We are committing collective suicide. It’s got nothing to do with us saying Catholicism is equivalent to Islam. It has everything to do with us ditching Christianity before anyone showed up at the door to replace us. The trend in Western Europe is similar.

That would be your take on why things are going like they are. To say that no blame is placed on the Church for changes and decisions they have made would be erroneous in my opinion. Where are the Nuns? Where are the vocations to the Priesthood? Where are the Catholics in Europe? Do the masses now feel that Catholicism is important enough to dedicate their entire life to? Westerners now days have a relativistic view on life. Yes secularization is the disease, but what caused the disease is the question. This is why I believe these Assisi meetings are possibly dangerous. It can give people on the fence the idea that the Catholic faith is no different then all others. In this day I believe that the Church should be shoring up the support of the people that truly believe in everything they teach and not on Assisi.

I left the Catholic faith when I was 13, because I knew nothing of the faith. I went to Sunday school for many years. Was baptized, received first Communion, and Confirmed. After all of this I still did not know anything about the Catholic faith. My parents and teachers in the Church did not catechize me and they all acted as if the faith wasn’t all that important. Not until this year when I started really looking into things on my own did I discover everything I missed out on as a child. I want the faith of my grandparents, not my parents.

 

[JReducation]

Are the Franciscans still in charge of this event, as they were in 86?

I would think so. It’s the Franciscan Order’s motherhouse, even though the whole place is owned by the Diocese of Assisi. In previous years the organizing team were people from the pope’s staff, from the bishiop’s staff and from the Conventual Franciscans.

What other religious are there in Assisi? From what I saw when I was in Europe, every chapel and church is run by one of the many Franciscan obediences. Whatever the Holy Father wants, he gets. Franciscans may never say no to the Holy Father or to a bishop, with one exception.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[passer_by]

Yes, I am Franciscan, but your statement is based on a misunderstanding. I have not said that Francis of Assisi is superior to any other saint. Every saint has his own gifts and is a unique person. Just an aside, yes the Church has dubbed St. Francis as: The Perfect Christian, The Seraphic Father, The Mirror of Perfection and recently Pope Benedict said of him, "The Living Example of the First Beatitude. The man has quite a reputation in the Church and has been highly respected by many great saints and great missionaries, among them Francis Xavier and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

So where does that put the Blessed Virgin Mother?

I think such titles can be thrown around for different saints, but in the end it really doesn’t mean much.

Neither Franciscans, Jesuits,Missionaries of Charity, Maryknoll, Dominicans, Missionaries of the Poor or Medical Mission Sisters ever ask anyone to become Catholic because we help them. Did you ever hear of Mother Teresa asking anyone to become Catholic? Yet, are you aware of how many men and women became Catholic influenced by her work and presence?

See, this is what I disagree with you.

You want to make people convert because they like your ways. But that is irrational. Someone in the West might like the way non-Catholics allow same sex marriage and accept people who are transgendered etc. Does that make it reasonable for wanting to convert?

Think about this for a bit.

When the West discovers a scientific principle, do they try to do charity for us so that we will accept it or do you just give it to us? If someone you know, thinks its ok to drink unboiled water, do you tell them to keep drinking and try to be charitable toward them?

I would assume you will correct their mistake by explaining the knowledge you have. You would even go to the degree of informing the governments in the third world etc.

But now, when it comes to religion, all of a sudden you want to just be nice to us and wait. Why the difference in policy? If it was ok to warn someone when they were putting their earthly lives in danger, why is it NOT OK to warn someone when they are putting their spiritual salvation in jeopardy?

As much as I appreciate St. Francis, not even great Franciscans seemed to have followed charitable procedures in combating heresies. St. Anthony of Padua for an example was very blunt in his defense and didn’t hold back any punches. I assume he didn’t get the title Hammer of the Heretics for nothing.

So I feel that you are promoting something that people who have not much knowledge on how to convert should do. Someone who doesn’t know ins and outs of Catholicism and how to explain why the other religion is false should just try to set an example through Christ-like life style in Charity.

BUT, those who have the knowledge, should be out there converting. Not just doing Charity work.

You may want to read up on the lives of men and women such as: St. Camilus, St. John of God, St. John de Matha, St. John Baptist de La Salle, St.Vincent de Paul, St. Louise de Marillac, St. Elizabeth Ann Seton, Bl. Mother Teresa, Bl. Charles de Facould, St. Frances Cabrini, St. Katherine Drexel, St. Damien the Leper and other great missionaries.

None of these men and women ever set out to convert anyone. They set out to do two things:

a) To live the gospel among the poor as one of them.

b) To serve the poor

c) To preach the Gospel by their example.

They always welcomed and taught the inquierer. They never hid or denied their faith in Christ when serving non-beleivers.

So where does this leave the St. Paul, the first Apostles of Christ? Were they really being imperfect Christians in seeking to convert people?

You said initially that St. Francis Xavier said that trying to convert does not work. But we know it worked for the Apostles. St. Thomas converted the Malabar Catholics of India. If the Apostles weren’t successful, you and I wouldn’t be Catholics today. St. Francis probably wouldn’t have been Catholic either.

So it appears to me that you are denying something that is very much a part of our Christian heritage. The apostles didn’t just ‘live’ Catholic lives and engage in charity to answer people when they asked questions.

Instead, they went out and preached. They went to all parts of the world and preached. They didn’t do charity work.

How do you reconcile this with what you are saying here?

 

[G_Inquisitor]

If anyone wants to understand the thinking that has brought about the Assisi style prayer meetings (during which, members of false religions are provided a room where they are encouraed to commit a mortal sin agains the first commandment), I would suggest the following article.