Pope explains why he is going to Assisi-III

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I found this on the Vatican’s site and it confirms what I’ve always thought of the Assisi gatherings. They are not the same as the work that is undertaken by the commission for relations with the Muslims. That particular commission actually sits down with Muslim leaders in dialogue. From what I can remember, it was founded by then Cardinal Ratzinger with the permission of Pope John Paul II.

The Assisi gathering does not have the same purpose as an interreligious dialogue. It’s purpose is to promote one specific idea, in this case, peace. It’s not to engage 100 or so different religious groups in a dialogue. Which makes sense, because that would be madness, since these people don’t agree with each other. Can you imagine the Pope being mediator between all of these folks.

Anyway, here is what the Council says about itself and I lifted only what speaks about Muslims, because it seems to be of greater interest on this thread. But it’s found on the Vatican site.

THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE

On Pentecost Sunday, 1964, Pope Paul VI instituted a special department of the Roman Curia for relatons with the people of other religions. Know at first as the Secretariat for Non Christians, in 1988 it was renamed the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue (PCID).

***Nature and Goals of PCID ***

The PCID is the central office of the Catholic Church for the promotion of interreligious dialogue in accordance with the spirit of the Second Vatican Council, in particular the declaration “Nostra Aetate”. It has the following responsabilities:
  1. to promote mutual understanding, respect and collaboration between Catholics and the followers of others religious traditions;
  2. to encourage the study of religions;
  3. to promote the formation of persons dedicated to dialogue.
N.B. It should be noted that the PCID does not have responsability for Christian-Jewish relations. These are the competence of the Commission for religious Relations with Jews, which comes under the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

Methodology of PCID

Dialogue is a two-way communication. It implies speaking and listening, giving and receiving, for mutual growth and enrichment. It includes witness to one’s own faith as well as an openess to that of the other. It is not a betrayal of mission of the Church, nor is it a new method of conversion to Christianity. This has been clearly stated in the encyclical letter of Pope John Paul II “Redemptoris Missio”. This view is also developed in the two documents produced by the PCID: The Attitude of the Catholic Church towards the Followers of Other Religious Traditions: reflections on Dialogue and Mission (1984), e Dialogue and Proclamation (1991).

Commission for religious relations with Muslims

The PCID has a special commission for relations with Muslims. This is composed of a President, Vice-President and Secretary, and has a small group of eight Consultors. It engages in studies on different aspects of Christian-Muslim relations.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
G_Inquisitor said:
If anyone wants to understand the thinking that has brought about the Assisi style prayer meetings (during which, members of false religions are provided a room where they are encouraed to commit a mortal sin agains the first commandment), I would suggest the following article.
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You have to understand though, Assissi is only a diplomatic event. It’s like me inviting a Muslim over to my home for lunch. He might want to pray before lunch too so he is welcome to do that and I might even have to give him a mat because he is my guest. But it doesn’t mean I endorse it.

The main goal is to build diplomacy and get to know each other.

All these problems only occur when you see it as an Ecumenical event.
 
JReducation said:
I would think so. It’s the Franciscan Order’s motherhouse, even though the whole place is owned by the Diocese of Assisi. In previous years the organizing team were people from the pope’s staff, from the bishiop’s staff and from the Conventual Franciscans.

What other religious are there in Assisi? From what I saw when I was in Europe, every chapel and church is run by one of the many Franciscan obediences. Whatever the Holy Father wants, he gets. Franciscans may never say no to the Holy Father or to a bishop, with one exception.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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I had thought, that the Holy Father put control of Assisi in the hands of the local bishop, Cardinal Ruini in 2005-ish. I guess, that could have just been a rumor.
 
Ahimsa said:
“I understand quite well” - Benedict XVI wrote on March 4, 2011 - “your concern regarding the participation at the Assisi meeting. However, this commemoration would have to have been celebrated in some way and, all things considered, it seemed to me that **the best thing would be for me to personally go there being thus able to determine the direction of it all. **I will nevertheless do everything in order that a syncretistic or relativistic interpretation of the event will be impossible and so that what will remain is that I will always believe and confess that which I had called to the attention of the Church with [the Declaration] ‘Dominus Iesus’.”
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So, he is accepting full responsibility here. I suppose we should wait and see how this time around will be different.

Prayers for H.H.
 
JReducation said:
Dialogue is a two-way communication. It implies speaking and listening, giving and receiving, for mutual growth and enrichment. It includes witness to one’s own faith as well as an openess to that of the other.
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Sorry, but a Catholic is not open to the “faith” of other religions. The Catholic Church has the entire deposit of faith, which was delivered to it by Jesus Christ, and which it will be more than happy to share with anyone who is open to the truth.

The duty of the Catholic Church is not only to preach the gospel, but also to openly and strongly condemn the errors opposed to it. Condeming the errors of heretics and infidels is an act of charity - both to the Catholic, who is then protected from falling into the error, as well as those unfortunate people who are entangled in the errors. Not everyone will respond to the truth, as our Lord said, but some will. The Church does not water down the truth because is it too hard for some to accept; neither should high ranking Churchmen give members of false religions the impression that they might be correct, or that they might have something to add “to the faith once delivered to the Saints”, by being “open” to their “faith” (read = false religion).

Where is the militant Catholic Spirit? It has virtually dissapeared, and has been replaced by a soft and sentimental spirit of compromise and excessive tolerance for public sin. The true Catholic Spirit has given way to the 1960’s hippie spirit. God help us.
 
G_Inquisitor said:
Sorry, but a Catholic is not open to the “faith” of other religions. The Catholic Church has the entire deposit of faith, which was delivered to it by Jesus Christ, and which it will be more than happy to share with anyone who is open to the truth.

The duty of the Catholic Church is not only to preach the gospel, but also to openly and strongly condemn the errors opposed to it. Condeming the errors of heretics and infidels is an act of charity - both to the Catholic, who is then protected from falling into the error, as well as those unfortunate people who are entangled in the errors. Not everyone will respond to the truth, as our Lord said, but some will. The Church does not water down the truth because is it too hard for some to accept; neither should high ranking Churchmen give members of false religions the impression that they might be correct, or that they might have something to add “to the faith once delivered to the Saints”, by being “open” to their “faith” (read = false religion).

Where is the militant Catholic Spirit? It has virtually dissapeared, and has been replaced by a soft and sentimental spirit of compromise and excessive tolerance for public sin. The true Catholic Spirit has given way to the 1960’s hippie spirit. God help us.
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http://community.comcast.net/t5/ima...217468A555/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1
 
passer_by said:
You have to understand though, Assissi is only a diplomatic event. It’s like me inviting a Muslim over to my home for lunch. He might want to pray before lunch too so he is welcome to do that and I might even have to give him a mat because he is my guest. But it doesn’t mean I endorse it.

The main goal is to build diplomacy and get to know each other.

All these problems only occur when you see it as an Ecumenical event.
Click to expand...
It’s worse than that. This was a religious event, in which representatives of false religions were allowed to publicly offer prayers to their respective “gods”, and were even provided a room where they could offer false worship (which is a mortal sin against the First Commandment). False worship is one of the worst sins a person can commit, since it has God as its formal object.

Catholics can be cordial with members of false religions, but when it comes to their religion as such, Catholics can have absolutely nothing to do with it, *and can not endorse it in any way. * In the same way, a Catholic can be cordial with an abortion doctor, but he can have absolutely nothing to do with his sin. It is exactly the same with a false religion, the only difference being, that false worship is actually worse than abortion.

Please read this article, which is actually a chapter of a book written by Bishop George Hay. What the good Bishop wrote perfectly explains the proper Catholic attitude toward false religions and their members. The book simply provides the consistent Catholic teaching on this subject. I actually think you will enjoy it.
 
G_Inquisitor said:
Sorry, but a Catholic is not open to the “faith” of other religions. The Catholic Church has the entire deposit of faith, which was delivered to it by Jesus Christ, and which it will be more than happy to share with anyone who is open to the truth.

The duty of the Catholic Church is not only to preach the gospel, but also to openly and strongly condemn the errors opposed to it. Condeming the errors of heretics and infidels is an act of charity - both to the Catholic, who is then protected from falling into the error, as well as those unfortunate people who are entangled in the errors. Not everyone will respond to the truth, as our Lord said, but some will. The Church does not water down the truth because is it too hard for some to accept; neither should high ranking Churchmen give members of false religions the impression that they might be correct, or that they might have something to add “to the faith once delivered to the Saints”, by being “open” to their “faith” (read = false religion).

Where is the militant Catholic Spirit? It has virtually dissapeared, and has been replaced by a soft and sentimental spirit of compromise and excessive tolerance for public sin. The true Catholic Spirit has given way to the 1960’s hippie spirit. God help us.
Click to expand...
No one is watering down the Truth. Instead, people are trying to find some common ground to engage dialogue. And once dialogue happens, we can start getting into the nitty gritty of things and engage in charitable discourse.

Running around yelling “Y’ALL HERETICS” may seem like a swell idea, but you probably won’t have people listening too much.

You need to build things up first, a lot of times. Like you would an ordinary relationship. You build a comfort level before you move too fast too soon.

The Franciscans and Dominicans have been doing things the way Brother JR describes for several centuries now, as in since the time of their inception. I’m pretty sure both orders have some success when it comes to converting people.
 
The trouble with all of this “explaining away” of Church teaching of century after century, is that it can’t be done without displaying the traits of the modernist mindset.

True Catholic apologetics does not include distortion of Doctrine, nor does it involve promoting exceptions to Doctrine. No Roman Catholic has to accept gatherings that include those of other religions when prayer is involved.

The first two gatherings were indeed scandalous. If they were not, BXVI would not have said “…the best thing would be for me to personally go there being thus able to determine the direction of it all. I will nevertheless do everything in order that a syncretistic or relativistic interpretation of the event will be impossible …” Why else would he ?

This dialogue we seek with non-Catholics… fine. Just don’t expect a Roman Catholic to shove his/her Faith aside to pray with them or let them present their false gods and religion to us.
 
Melchior said:
No one is watering down the Truth. Instead, people are trying to find some common ground to engage dialogue. And once dialogue happens, we can start getting into the nitty gritty of things and engage in charitable discourse.

Running around yelling “Y’ALL HERETICS” may seem like a swell idea, but you probably won’t have people listening too much.

You need to build things up first, a lot of times. Like you would an ordinary relationship. You build a comfort level before you move too fast too soon.

The Franciscans and Dominicans have been doing things the way Brother JR describes for several centuries now, as in since the time of their inception. I’m pretty sure both orders have some success when it comes to converting people.
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With the explosive growth of non Christian sects,particularly Islam as well as the ever expanding protestant groups we can clearly see just how effective such a strategy really is. While they have had some success in ythe past,I somehow that these days they are doing too much in the area.
 
Melchior said:
No one is watering down the Truth. Instead, people are trying to find some common ground to engage dialogue. And once dialogue happens, we can start getting into the nitty gritty of things and engage in charitable discourse.

Running around yelling “Y’ALL HERETICS” may seem like a swell idea, but you probably won’t have people listening too much.

You need to build things up first, a lot of times. Like you would an ordinary relationship. You build a comfort level before you move too fast too soon.
Click to expand...
“Common ground”? What does this even mean? Seems to me that Satan loves that kind of wishy washy statement [NB: not calling you wishy washy]. Thing is - all too often the ‘common ground’ approach just stays on that ground and never moves. It’s a farcical kind of conversation.

Us: Hi there, we have things in common!
Them: Really? Gee, that’s swell!
Us: Yup. Well, okay then…
Them: Great, glad we’re both doing the right thing, see ya later!

Nobody says to go around screaming people down and giving them the label of heretic. That’s a caricature and of course it wouldn’t work in terms of conversion. What needs to be done is what has been done before. In all charity to present the truth and not give in to error. Imagine the kind of witness that gives? To say “I will stand absolutely firm in saying your faith is false, but I will also give you reasons to know that this is the truth!”. Let’s put more trust in God and the Holy Spirit and less trust in our own attempts at “finding common ground to dialogue”.

There is a strong false notion of what good conversion is in this regard. It’s not aggressive, it’s not demeaning, it’s not uncharitable, it’s not rash, it’s not raw. It’s loving, kind, charitable, truthful. It’s true dialogue and true conversion of heart. We stand firm in affirming what is true and what is false. This is the starting point. Satan loves to take advantage of anything he can, let’s not give him the chance to get in there.
 
No, the main cause of this has been secularization. Decades before Muslim immigration began in Canada, Canadians were disassociating themselves from organized religion in droves. Quebec, the society I live in, was 90% Catholic. Now only a small minority are practicing Catholics. As a society, we have nobody to blame but ourselves. Muslims are merely showing up at the door still practicing their faith, and requesting the ability to continue practicing it.

On top of that our ditching religion has given us a birth rate below the replacement rate. So we need immigration so the next generation of immigrants can fund our pensions and social programs.

We are committing collective suicide. It’s got nothing to do with us saying Catholicism is equivalent to Islam. It has everything to do with us ditching Christianity before anyone showed up at the door to replace us. The trend in Western Europe is similar.

This.
 
Melchior said:
No one is watering down the Truth. Instead, people are trying to find some common ground to engage dialogue. And once dialogue happens, we can start getting into the nitty gritty of things and engage in charitable discourse.
Click to expand...
It’s been 25 year since the first Assisi meeting. How much longer before they start getting down to the nitty gritty?
Running around yelling “Y’ALL HERETICS” may seem like a swell idea, but you probably won’t have people listening too much.
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No, I wouldn’t advocate calling anyone names. But it should be made very clear to all that the Catholic religion alone is true, and is the only means established by God through which man can be saved. This should be made known clearly, with all due respect shown for the person, but not for the religion. We should show all men proper respect, but never show the least respect for false religions. The Bible tells us, not only to love that which is good, but also to hate that which is evil. False religions are evil, and therefore should be hated. Again, not the person, but the religion.
You need to build things up first, a lot of times. Like you would an ordinary relationship. You build a comfort level before you move too fast too soon.
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I disagree. The truth has a power of its own. Those who have a love for the truth will recognize it and respond. Those who do not love the truth will never respond, regardless of how “nice” we are to them, or how much of a relationship we have with them. All you have to do is ask a Catholic who has a fallen away family member. He may have a great relationship with them, but they do not respond to the truth.
The Franciscans and Dominicans have been doing things the way Brother JR describes for several centuries now, as in since the time of their inception. I’m pretty sure both orders have some success when it comes to converting people.
Click to expand...
The Franciscan and Dominican missionaries never encouraged false worship, and never led others to believe their religion was fine. The true missionaries preached the truth with clarity and confidence, and reaped the fruits.

St. Francis did his preaching through actions (and sometimes words), but his actions always corresponded to the truth. In other words, he never implied, through his actions, that other religions were in any way good. In fact, in the famous story his meeting with the Muslim leader, he told the Saracen publicly that he was there to preach Christ and convert him. He even challenged their the Muslim clerics to a trial by fire, in which he and the clerics of the false religion would walk through the fire. Whoever came out alive had the true religion. Of course, the Muslims would not accept the offer.

Let us not be mislead by revisionist history which attempts to present the Saints of old as sentimental and soft ecumaniacs. Read any life of a Saint and it will become clear that they were anything but soft and sentimental.
 
G_Inquisitor said:
It’s worse than that. This was a religious event, in which representatives of false religions were allowed to publicly offer prayers to their respective “gods”, and were even provided a room where they could offer false worship (which is a mortal sin against the First Commandment). False worship is one of the worst sins a person can commit, since it has God as its formal object.

Catholics can be cordial with members of false religions, but when it comes to their religion as such, Catholics can have absolutely nothing to do with it, *and can not endorse it in any way. * In the same way, a Catholic can be cordial with an abortion doctor, but he can have absolutely nothing to do with his sin. It is exactly the same with a false religion, the only difference being, that false worship is actually worse than abortion.

Please read this article, which is actually a chapter of a book written by Bishop George Hay. What the good Bishop wrote perfectly explains the proper Catholic attitude toward false religions and their members. The book simply provides the consistent Catholic teaching on this subject. I actually think you will enjoy it.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the chapter. I couldn’t read most of it but it had some important information.

But I think you have to be a bit wary of how you apply it to this case.

The first part of the chapter, which deals with Scriptural commands do not deal with Church leaders like Bishops and Pope’s. After all, they have to engage in discussions with heretics and cannot just avoid them completely. This is also consistent with what the church leaders have done in the past with heretics and pagans. They went and engaged in discussion to correct them.

The last part of that chapter is disciplinary laws. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how you look at it), they no longer apply today.

It is with that understanding that we must look at Assissi.

So here we see a case where the Pope decides to hold a diplomatic meeting with different religious. Its solely meant for building relations for him to perhaps discuss straight to the point about the possibility of conversion at a later date.

In and of it-self, there is nothing sinful in doing that.

But it can have side effects like those mentioned in Mortalium Animos. The Pope can freely decide that the greater good attained by holding Assissi outweighs the bad. It might be a bad call, but its not a sin. He simply made a decision which didn’t turn out to be that great.

So in this sense, the Pope hasn’t gone and worshiped false God’s or encouraged the worship of them. He has merely invited different religious to a meeting to try and build diplomacy. In that meeting, as guests, he gives them rooms to do their worship. Care has to obviously be taken to prevent them from doing scandalous things. But that is a organization issue and if something fails, its not a sin.
 
Who says they haven’t gotten into some details? We’re not privy to all the conversations held. Some of the Catholics attending could have taken things “offline”, so to speak.

People are often not receptive when you approach them immediately and say “you’re wrong”. Sometimes things get hostile, and in some parts of the world hostility means death. Yes, we are called to die for the Truth if need be. But this should not be taken lightly, and unless blasphemy is involved one should do what they can to avoid death.

Coming to an understanding about what unites us could assist in examining the differences. For example, rather than looking at the Jews being one step behind because they don’t think the Messiah has come yet, we could first approach them as worshiping the God of Jacob, which could allow us to be civil. We could discuss the Old Testament with them, come to some agreements, and move on from there. With Muslims, we can talk about that same God, and then proceed to get into deeper conversations. Again, dialogue and comfort levels. An excellent example with this comes from discussions Rome had with the Anglican Church. There are also discussions with the Lutherans who may find themselves in a similar position some time down the road.

It was mentioned that St. Francis, and that he told the Sultan that he was going to preach. He did say that, but what produced the most fruit? The approach that he eventually took, which enabled the Franciscans to be the custodians of the Holy Land was what did.
 
Irish_Polock said:
I had thought, that the Holy Father put control of Assisi in the hands of the local bishop, Cardinal Ruini in 2005-ish. I guess, that could have just been a rumor.
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Being that Cardinal Ruini has retired, I guess Cardinal Agostino Vallini would now be that local Bishop. 😃
 
Melchior said:
Who says they haven’t gotten into some details? We’re not privy to all the conversations held. Some of the Catholics attending could have taken things “offline”, so to speak.

People are often not receptive when you approach them immediately and say “you’re wrong”. Sometimes things get hostile, and in some parts of the world hostility means death. Yes, we are called to die for the Truth if need be. But this should not be taken lightly, and unless blasphemy is involved one should do what they can to avoid death.

Coming to an understanding about what unites us could assist in examining the differences. For example, rather than looking at the Jews being one step behind because they don’t think the Messiah has come yet, we could first approach them as worshiping the God of Jacob, which could allow us to be civil. We could discuss the Old Testament with them, come to some agreements, and move on from there. With Muslims, we can talk about that same God, and then proceed to get into deeper conversations. Again, dialogue and comfort levels. An excellent example with this comes from discussions Rome had with the Anglican Church. There are also discussions with the Lutherans who may find themselves in a similar position some time down the road.

It was mentioned that St. Francis, and that he told the Sultan that he was going to preach. He did say that, but what produced the most fruit? The approach that he eventually took, which enabled the Franciscans to be the custodians of the Holy Land was what did.
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I think conversion requires both. You can’t just do charity and expect anyone to convert. Anyone who does convert is actually being irrational to just follow what they like. So active preaching must also be there. Jesus didn’t say go and live your lives like me. He said go out and preach. Apostles didn’t go out and just do charity. They went out an preached.

With Rome and Anglicans, you have to remember that the reason for joining the Catholic Church was due to internal problems. So some Anglicans actually didn’t like the idea of female priests and same sex unions. When it started to get approved, they had no choice but to join Catholicism. But if that sort of problem never happened, Anglicans would just be as far apart as they were before.

So you have to keep in mind that keeping the door open is part of the conversion process. Today it looks like the church has abandoned everything else to just have the open door policy. But thats just not enough. More has to be done.

There must be missionaries and Bishops who talk with Imams. Get them thinking about questions on Islam. Just getting together routinely and saying "we both believe in the one God, wow’’ is not going to help convert anyone.
 
passer_by said:
I think conversion requires both. You can’t just do charity and expect anyone to convert. Anyone who does convert is actually being irrational to just follow what they like.

With Rome and Anglicans, you have to remember that the reason for joining the Catholic Church was due to internal problems. So some Anglicans actually didn’t like the idea of female priests and same sex unions. When it started to get approved, they had no choice but to join Catholicism. But if it never happened, Anglicans would just be as far apart as they are today.

So you have to keep in mind that keeping the door open is part of the conversion process. Today it looks like the church has abandoned everything else to just have the open door policy. But thats just not enough. More has to be done.

There must be missionaries and Bishops who talk with Imams. Get them thinking about questions on Islam. Just getting together routinely and saying "we both believe in the one God, wow’’ is not going to help convert anyone.
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I’m sure there are people who do such things, they just aren’t working on it with high visibility.

Like I said before, the Franciscans will do the role of host perfectly. The Pope knows they are the best to perform this function. The best. No others order could host such an event as well as they would.

When the leaders want to follow up with people from Rome, or if Rome wants to reach out to the leaders, you bet your bippy there’s going to be some Jesuits and Dominicans thrown at them faster than CAF servers load these pages. They can’t exactly advertise dialogue between the leaders though, for obvious reasons (safety concerns, in some cases).
 
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