Pope - False Prophet? Opinions please!

[Byzman]

Ok I posted on another thread about my friend questioning what would happen if the Pope were proven wrong about faith and morals. Now he is trying to show me that a future Pope will one day usher in the Anti-Christ because of the Pope being the false prophet that goes before the Anti-Christ. Again…I argue this cant happen because there would be some sort of alliance formed between the two…hence the Church would form an alliance with the Devil…which to me goes against the Scriptures of the powers of death not prevailing against the Church(Matthew 16:18). I am a theology major at a local Catholic university and I actually have not studied Revelation too much…nor the book of Daniel(since they(Fundamentalists) seem to use that a lot too). Now I know both books are prophetic and that they use a lot of imagery from these two to try to find credence to their beliefs. So he reads to me and says things along the lines of the Holy Roman Empire is going to form again and the Pope is going to be included in this again. And he tries to find support with imagery of the books of Daniel and Revelation.

So I would like opinions of the well learned men and women that appear all over these forums as to what I could be pointed to as reference or info that could be shared and discussed.

Funny how I feel that I am a decent apologist when it comes to certain things but this I have yet to of studied and maybe I finally should.

 

[cheryl1224]

I don’t know much…but Scott Hahn who is a convert (he used to be a protestant minister) wrote a book called the Lamb’s Supper that is really, really good. He explains the mass and talks about how Revelation is actually referring to it! It was part of his conversion as he could see it constantly. Anyway, if you think about it this way then Jesus has already returned and keeps returning in the mass when the Lamb is sacrificed again. This pretty much takes care of revelation and the second comming. (my words not his as I just started reading the book). As far as the anti-Christ…I think we have had many.

 

[DavidFilmer]

There are many anti-Christs - people who live their lives contrary to the Gospel. There have been a handful of Papal anti-Christs already - Popes who are downright scoundrels, with no moral compass whatsoever (Pope Alexander IV is perhaps the worst offender). But, whereas they were scoundrels, none of these evil Popes ever attempted to codify his behavior in Doctrine. Catholic apologists sometimes use this fact in support of the infallibility of the Pope. A Pope can indeed be evil, while not teaching evil. As Jesus told the Apostles, “The Pharisees sit upon the seat of Moses [Peter]. Therefore do all that they command. But do not imitate their actions, for they say one thing but do another.”

Revelation speaks of THE anti-Christ - one specific individual who plays a major role in the end times. As you point out, Revelation is full of imagery and allegory. It’s possible that THE anti-Christ is not even a person, but maybe a personification of something like secularism.

It’s also possible that THE anti-Christ could be a Pope, but not violate infallibility. It could even be a pope of good will. For example, suppose a Pope recognizes that Eucharist is a big controversy between protestants and Catholics. So, in the spirit of ecumenism, he instructs that the Mass not incorporate the Eucharist (it would be only the Liturgy of the Word, similar to a protestant service). A Pope could do that. He’s not teaching error (he’s not teaching anything). But I believe it would destroy the Church.

The fact is that all of this is pure speculation. For any passage of prophetic Scripture, we could come up with many plausible interpretations. The Catholic Church teaches almost nothing about the end times, so we have no authoritative source. Thus, it is complete guess work.

FWIW, I heartily agree with the previous poster - The Lamb’s Supper is an amazing book - it is THE most amazing book I have ever read. It casts this whole discussion in a completely different light.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Don’t feel so bad - Eschatology is a specialized branch of theology, one which many cannot claim to command, although we as Catholics should all know the major themes.

Also, as Eastern Catholics, we are formed spiritually in a way which focuses on Theosis, our quest to become more like God and return to our original state in Creation - made in the image and likeness of God. The consequences of failure so emphasized in the sensational focus on “end of days” are not things we normally dwell upon. We know the consequences of failure - we concentrate on seeking the Lord in all that we do.

You may thus perhaps rely on your Eastern Christian heritage and ask, “Why does it concern you so much? Should we not be seeking God in everything we do (as opposed to looking for the Devil)?”

 

[pablope]

Ok I posted on another thread about my friend questioning what would happen if the Pope were proven wrong about faith and morals. Now I know both books are prophetic and that they use a lot of imagery from these two to try to find credence to their beliefs. So he reads to me and says things along the lines of the Holy Roman Empire is going to form again and the Pope is going to be included in this again. And he tries to find support with imagery of the books of Daniel and Revelation.

So I would like opinions of the well learned men and women that appear all over these forums as to what I could be pointed to as reference or info that could be shared and discussed.

Funny how I feel that I am a decent apologist when it comes to certain things but this I have yet to of studied and maybe I finally should.

Well, first, there has been no instance where any previous pope has claimed to be a prophet.

If he suddenly starts claiming to be a prophet…then that is another story.

Tell them…the See of Peter (the Church at Rome) will be the only one standing to oppose the anti-Christ.

I heard this asked on CA Live, I think…a caller asked about something akin to this…where was he to go? The answer is the See of Peter…because of the promise of Christ…it will stand to oppose the anti-Christ…just as the RCC continues to stand on what it has taught for 2000 years.

Besides, we have St. Michael the archangel on our back…

Have them watch this video…especially part 4…youtube.com/watch?v=dDgoNlOn-hk

You can also study here…ocsb.wetpaint.com/

I think the guy who maintains this site is a member here too and is catholic.

 

[thessalonian]

Ok I posted on another thread about my friend questioning what would happen if the Pope were proven wrong about faith and morals. Now he is trying to show me that a future Pope will one day usher in the Anti-Christ because of the Pope being the false prophet that goes before the Anti-Christ. Again…I argue this cant happen because there would be some sort of alliance formed between the two…hence the Church would form an alliance with the Devil…which to me goes against the Scriptures of the powers of death not prevailing against the Church(Matthew 16:18). I am a theology major at a local Catholic university and I actually have not studied Revelation too much…nor the book of Daniel(since they(Fundamentalists) seem to use that a lot too). Now I know both books are prophetic and that they use a lot of imagery from these two to try to find credence to their beliefs. So he reads to me and says things along the lines of the Holy Roman Empire is going to form again and the Pope is going to be included in this again. And he tries to find support with imagery of the books of Daniel and Revelation.

So I would like opinions of the well learned men and women that appear all over these forums as to what I could be pointed to as reference or info that could be shared and discussed.

Funny how I feel that I am a decent apologist when it comes to certain things but this I have yet to of studied and maybe I finally should.

There have been anti-popes in the past and so it is possible that an anti-pope could claim to be the Pope. He will not be a legitimate Pope. I have heard this speculated before and would not be surprized since certainly Satan knows where the rubber hits the road in Christianity. As in the past there were ways of knowing who the real Pope is and he will not viliolate the charism’s of the office.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

There have been anti-popes in the past and so it is possible that an anti-pope could claim to be the Pope. He will not be a legitimate Pope. I have heard this speculated before and would not be surprized since certainly Satan knows where the rubber hits the road in Christianity. As in the past there were ways of knowing who the real Pope is and he will not viliolate the charism’s of the office.

Isn’t it funny that so many who find so much fault with the Catholic Church assume that the antichrist will occupy the chair of St. Peter?

 

[Farsight001]

Pope’s aren’t well known for making prophecies, and you can’t be a false prophet without making at least one prophecy. I would ask about that.

 

[Byzman]

I don’t know much…but Scott Hahn who is a convert (he used to be a protestant minister) wrote a book called the Lamb’s Supper that is really, really good. He explains the mass and talks about how Revelation is actually referring to it! It was part of his conversion as he could see it constantly. Anyway, if you think about it this way then Jesus has already returned and keeps returning in the mass when the Lamb is sacrificed again. This pretty much takes care of revelation and the second comming. (my words not his as I just started reading the book). As far as the anti-Christ…I think we have had many.

Yes, I have this book…in fact years ago I let him borrow it and have not read or seen it since! He still has it and says that he is still reading it…but how deep it was for him to grasp onto all at once.

 

[Byzman]

Well, first, there has been no instance where any previous pope has claimed to be a prophet.

If he suddenly starts claiming to be a prophet…then that is another story.

Tell them…the See of Peter (the Church at Rome) will be the only one standing to oppose the anti-Christ.

I heard this asked on CA Live, I think…a caller asked about something akin to this…where was he to go? The answer is the See of Peter…because of the promise of Christ…it will stand to oppose the anti-Christ…just as the RCC continues to stand on what it has taught for 2000 years.

Besides, we have St. Michael the archangel on our back…

Have them watch this video…especially part 4…youtube.com/watch?v=dDgoNlOn-hk

You can also study here…ocsb.wetpaint.com/

I think the guy who maintains this site is a member here too and is catholic.

Yes…this is what I argue.

Plus I will take a look at these links and see what they say.

 

[Abu]

Byzman #1
….what would happen if the Pope were proven wrong about faith and morals. Now he is trying to show me that a future Pope will one day usher in the Anti-Christ because of the Pope being the false prophet that goes before the Anti-Christ.

As this could not be proved after 2000 years, and reduces Jesus the Christ to a charlatan, how farcical to fantasise thus.

Your dreamer ridicules Christ when He mandated:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Jn 14:25: The Holy Spirit who the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your mind whatever I have said to you.”

From Vatican I (Pastor Aeternus), for infallibility to be exercised the Pope must teach
(a) ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter), that is as Shepherd and Teacher of all Christians,
(b) speaking with Peter’s apostolic authority to the whole Church,
(c) defining a doctrine of faith and morals.

The three levels of teaching are:

1. Dogma – infallible (Canon #750.1) to be believed with the assent of divine and Catholic faith.
2. Doctrine – infallible (Canon #750.2) requires the assent of ecclesial faith, to be “firmly embraced and held”.
3. Doctrine – non-definitive (non-infallible) and requires intellectual assent (“loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 25), not an assent of faith. [See Ad Tuendam Fidem, Bl JPII]

How could HIS Church possibly teach error in defining faith and morals for the world with HIS authority?

DavidFilmer #3
For example, suppose a Pope recognizes that Eucharist is a big controversy between protestants and Catholics. So, in the spirit of ecumenism, he instructs that the Mass not incorporate the Eucharist (it would be only the Liturgy of the Word, similar to a protestant service). A Pope could do that. He’s not teaching error (he’s not teaching anything). But I believe it would destroy the Church.

No, he could not do that because he would be denying Christ at the Last Supper which is part of the Tradition of His Church and commanded by Him, and is the raison d’être of the priesthood instituted by Christ in which His priests are in persona Christi: “Do this in commemoration of Me” (Lk 22:19; I Cor 11:24). The Holy Spirit protects the Church in carrying out Her Tradition in conformity with the Sacred Scripture quoted for She is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1Tim 3:15)

 

[motoeric]

Could it be some schismatic imaginary ‘Pope’ in the future? Maybe, but it is highly unlikely.

Two quick things:

1. The Bible states that the anti-christ will deny the Father and the Son. No Pope has done that in 2000 years and I can’t imagine one doing so in the future.
2. If you look at Islamic eschatology, it seems much more likely that there savior figure is who we recognize as the anti-christ.

Eric

 

[eddadonkey]

+JMJ+

On the other hand, what I find amazing about the Papacy—and one of the main reasons my faith is firmly the Catholic Faith—is that one of the weakest-willed Popes in history, Pope Paul VI, issued (in my opinion) one of the most stunning pieces of prophecy in recent history: Humanae Vitae. If you don’t believe me, go to paragraph 17 onwards.

 

[Pax]

Ok I posted on another thread about my friend questioning what would happen if the Pope were proven wrong about faith and morals. Now he is trying to show me that a future Pope will one day usher in the Anti-Christ because of the Pope being the false prophet that goes before the Anti-Christ. Again…I argue this cant happen because there would be some sort of alliance formed between the two…hence the Church would form an alliance with the Devil…which to me goes against the Scriptures of the powers of death not prevailing against the Church(Matthew 16:18). I am a theology major at a local Catholic university and I actually have not studied Revelation too much…nor the book of Daniel(since they(Fundamentalists) seem to use that a lot too). Now I know both books are prophetic and that they use a lot of imagery from these two to try to find credence to their beliefs. So he reads to me and says things along the lines of the Holy Roman Empire is going to form again and the Pope is going to be included in this again. And he tries to find support with imagery of the books of Daniel and Revelation.

So I would like opinions of the well learned men and women that appear all over these forums as to what I could be pointed to as reference or info that could be shared and discussed.

Funny how I feel that I am a decent apologist when it comes to certain things but this I have yet to of studied and maybe I finally should.

You can start by going to the following link and read the articles therein.

catholic.com/search/content/Dave%20Hunt

 

[Byzman]

You can start by going to the following link and read the articles therein.

catholic.com/search/content/Dave%20Hunt

Thanks…this info worked out perfectly.

 

[A_Gift]

Well, first, there has been no instance where any previous pope has claimed to be a prophet.

If he suddenly starts claiming to be a prophet…then that is another story.

Tell them…the See of Peter (the Church at Rome) will be the only one standing to oppose the anti-Christ.

I heard this asked on CA Live, I think…a caller asked about something akin to this…where was he to go? The answer is the See of Peter…because of the promise of Christ…it will stand to oppose the anti-Christ…just as the RCC continues to stand on what it has taught for 2000 years.

Besides, we have St. Michael the archangel on our back…

Have them watch this video…especially part 4…youtube.com/watch?v=dDgoNlOn-hk

You can also study here…ocsb.wetpaint.com/

I think the guy who maintains this site is a member here too and is catholic.

Chirstians will be there, but Christ Himself is the one who will not only oppose, but utterly destroy both the anti-Christ’s and the drogon (Satan).

Peter??? Did he die to redeem the lost? He wouldn’t even qualify as a sacrafice as he himself was a sinner like all the rest of us. In Catholic theology; Mary would be the only other possible substitute since your religion claims she was born and lived without sin, which I find no reason to comment on.

In Revelation there will be an anti-Christ who brings a one world economic and religious order and thus a false peace, which is ALLOWED by the God given power to Satan (the dragon to the beast(s)), which allows various signs and wonders and leads people to follow after this person(s) but Jesus will utterly destroy all of this at the battle of Armageddon. Revelation 13 - 16 is a good place to start if you want to know what God has predetermined.

I find it interesting that in Revelation 13 there is an interesting command from God “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man ; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.” In Biblical times the Hebrews assigned numbers to letters and was used as a counting system and is called Gematria (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria).

So some generation must be able to fulfill this command; someone with divine wisdom according to the passage, which all true wisdom is divine wisdom, but to say it is definitively the Pope I believe that is going out on a long limb. It could be, but then again it could be anyone with significant influences and power and that would leave a myriad of possibilities in my estimation.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Peter??? Did he die to redeem the lost? He wouldn’t even qualify as a sacrafice as he himself was a sinner like all the rest of us. In Catholic theology; Mary would be the only other possible substitute since your religion claims she was born and lived without sin, which I find no reason to comment on.

I think you just did …

So some generation must be able to fulfill this command; someone with divine wisdom according to the passage, which all true wisdom is divine wisdom, but to say it is definitively the Pope I believe that is going out on a long limb. It could be, but then again it could be anyone with significant influences and power and that would leave a myriad of possibilities in my estimation.

It is more likely that someone with great secular power will be the antichrist, as you have more or less suggested. Surely Satan would be more creative than stealing the chair of St. Peter. Or perhaps the antichrist will be a more subtle, yet devastating influencer than we expect.

 

[A_Gift]

I think you just did …

It is more likely that someone with great secular power will be the antichrist, as you have more or less suggested. Surely Satan would be more creative than stealing the chair of St. Peter. Or perhaps the antichrist will be a more subtle, yet devastating influencer than we expect.

Look carefully at what Jesus said about the pharisees and the “Seat of Moses” in Luke’s account, then use your imagination concerning the “Seat of Peter”. There is no biblical revelation to any such seat, that is a denominational tradition not found in the Word of God. That is the Catholic business and right to make that claim for itself. Since Vatican City is a nation unto itself; it has the right in my opinion.

 

[Abu]

A Gift #16
Peter???.. he himself was a sinner like all the rest of us.

Naturally, and fancy imagining that Jesus the Christ didn’t know who He was placing to lead His Church, the Bride of Christ.

#18
There is no biblical revelation to any such seat, that is a denominational tradition not found in the Word of God.

See post #11 to know that Christ gave His personal authority to Peter as His Supreme Vicar over His Church to bind and loose.

This is from the Sacred Scriptures given to the world by His Church.

The Holy Spirit protects the Church in carrying out Her Tradition in conformity with the Sacred Scripture quoted for She is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1Tim 3:15).

 

[A_Gift]

Naturally, and fancy imagining that Jesus the Christ didn’t know who He was placing to lead His Church, the Bride of Christ.
See post #11 to know that Christ gave His personal authority to Peter as His Supreme Vicar over His Church to bind and loose.

This is from the Sacred Scriptures given to the world by His Church.

The Holy Spirit protects the Church in carrying out Her Tradition in conformity with the Sacred Scripture quoted for She is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1Tim 3:15).

If you say so - God said Jesus was the Head of His church and so did the apostles and the prophets;according to Scripture - see/mediate over Matthew 18 and think/mediate the purpose/command of the Great Commission and the ministries of Paul to the gentiles and Peter to the Jews. Should illuminate the truth if the Holy Spirit should allow or as the Lord wills.