Pope Fiction

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Lazerlike,
I appreciate your very thoughtful (and thorough!) (name removed by moderator)ut.

My problem, however, is not with the notion that Peter was the leader of the Apostles, or that Rome had preeminence among the churches. History clearly demonstrates that both of these are true.

My difficulty is that I don’t see how these facts point to the papacy as we see it today (i.e. papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction).

Thanks,

A
 
So far as Pope Gregory is concerned, I will cite the Catholic Encyclopedia:
In view of later developments Gregory’s dealings with the Oriental Churches, and with Constantinople in particular, have a special importance. There cannot be the smallest doubt that Gregory claimed for the Apostolic See, and for himself as pope, a primacy not of honor, but of supreme authority over the Church Universal. In Epp., XIII, l, he speaks of “the Apostolic See, which is the head of all Churches”, and in Epp., V, cliv, he says: “I, albeit unworthy, have been set up in command of the Church.” As successor of St. Peter, the pope had received from God a primacy over all Churches (Epp., II, xlvi; III, xxx; V, xxxvii; VII, xxxvii). His approval it was which gave force to the decrees of councils or synods (Epp., IX, clvi), and his authority could annul them (Epp., V, xxxix, xli, xliv). To him appeals might be made even against other patriarchs, and by him bishops were judged and corrected if need were (Epp., II, l; III, lii, lxiii; IX, xxvi, xxvii).
This position naturally made it impossible for him to permit the use of the title Ecumenical Bishop assumed by the Patriarch of Constantinople, John the Faster, at a synod held in 588. Gregory protested, and a long controversy followed, the question still at issue when the pope died. A discussion of this controversy is needless here, but it is important as showing how completely Gregory regarded the Eastern patriarchs as being subject to himself; **“As regards the Church of Constantinople,” he writes in Epp., IX, xxvi, “who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, both our most religious lord the emperor, and our brother the Bishop of Constantinople continually acknowledge it.” **
In addition to those citations, some quotes from Gregory, emphasis added:

III, xxx:
Inasmuch as it is manifest that the Apostolic See is, by the ordering of God, set over all Churches, there is, among our manifold cares, special demand for our attention, when our decision is awaited with a view to the consecration of a bishop

III, vi - to John, Bishop of Prima Justiniana, a Byzantine city
:
If, then, these things which have been brought before us have the rampart of truth, inasmuch as we consider that, taking advantage of your vicariate jurisdiction under us
, you are presuming unjustly, we will, with the help of Christ, decree further concerning these things, according to the result of our deliberations. But as regards the present, by the authority of the blessed Peter, Prince of the apostles, we decree that, the decrees of thy judgment being first annulled and made of none effect, thou be deprived of holy communion for the space of thirty days, so as to implore pardon of our God for so great transgression with the utmost penitence and tears.

III, vii - to John, Bishop of Larissa, a Greek city:
But, if thou shouldest attempt at any time, on any pretext or by any surreptitious device, to contravene these our ordinances, know that we decree thee to be deprived of holy communion, and not to partake of it except at the close of thy life, unless upon leave granted by the Roman pontiff.
V, xx - in which St. Gregory clearly speaks of the Petrine jurisdiction while rejecting the title of Universal Bishop to John the Faster, proving that by “universal bishop” he does not refer to the universal papal jurisdiction, but to something else, as Mr. Madrid explained:
**For to all who know the Gospel it is apparent that by the Lord’s voice the care of the whole Church was committed to the holy Apostle and Prince of all the Apostles, Peter. **
For to him it is said, Peter, lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep (John xxi. 17). To him it is said, Behold Satan hath desired to sift you as wheat; and I have prayed for thee, Peter, that they faith fail not. And thou, when thou art converted,strengthen thy brethren (Luke xxii. 31). To him it is said, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates ofhell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind an earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven (Matth. xvi. 18).** Lo, he received the keys of the heavenly kingdom, and power to bind and loose is given him, the care and principality of the whole Church is committed to him**, and yet he is not called the universal apostle; while the most holy man, my fellow-priest John, attempts to be called universal bishop. I am compelled to cry out and say, O tempora, O mores

See globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/gregory.htm for more examples.

I believe that that page lists only some examples of the many that would be available.

Peace and God bless
 
Lazerlike,
I appreciate your very thoughtful (and thorough!) (name removed by moderator)ut.

My problem, however, is not with the notion that Peter was the leader of the Apostles, or that Rome had preeminence among the churches. History clearly demonstrates that both of these are true.

My difficulty is that I don’t see how these facts point to the papacy as we see it today (i.e. papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction).

Thanks,

A
Algernon,

some of what I said does indeed point to universal jurisdiction, for example, St. Chrysostom’s statement that Peter had the same authority as the other apostles collectively, Jesus’ commission to “govern” His sheep, and Irenaeus’ declaration that the Church of Rome has preeminent authority.

I was not attempting to address infallibility.

Some more evidence of universal jurisdiction includes the situation involving the council of Chalcedon. The Council included a 28th canon which was contrary to the authority of the Pope. Pope Leo the Great declared this canon null. In response, Anatolius, the Archbishop of Constantinople wrote Pope Leo:
"As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople [ie. canon 28], let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness.
  • Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132
For the next six centuries, there no Eastern Church acknowledges any more than 27 canons for Chalcedon. There is more and more. This is just a taste.
 
I agree. The Pope definitely holds a special place in the Church.
However, papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction simply don’t hold up under scrutiny.
A
Then you’re in agreement with the Catholic Communion of Churches! 👍

Alaha minokhoun
Andrew
 
Say what you want, but I think the Papacy is a necessity. The Orthodox Churches don’t even all believe and teach the same things.

Thank God for the Pope.
In a word, the only bond which unites the various factions the compose Orthodoxy, and which permits the giving to them of a general name, is the common refusal of obedience to the successor of St. Peter in the See of Rome; it is their persistence in revolt against the religious authority established by Jesus Christ, acknowledged by the Greeks themselves until the 9th century, or more exactly, until the middle of the 11th century, and again admitted at the Coucil of Florence (1438 - 1439 A.D.)
 
In a word, the only bond which unites the various factions the compose Orthodoxy, and which permits the giving to them of a general name, is the common refusal of obedience to the successor of St. Peter in the See of Rome; it is their persistence in revolt against the religious authority established by Jesus Christ, acknowledged by the Greeks themselves until the 9th century, or more exactly, until the middle of the 11th century, and again admitted at the Coucil of Florence (1438 - 1439 A.D.)
Actually, Tomster, you have it wrong. What binds the Orthodox, in a word, is a common belief in the Holy Sacrament and in the Faith, “which was delivered once for all to the saints.” (Jude 3)
All Orthodox are in comminuion with one another (except for a few factions which have chosen to remove themselves from communion, e.g. Old Believers, Old Calendarists).
But not everyone in “revolt against the religious authority” of the Pope is in communion with the Orthodox Church (such as Protestants, etc.)

A
 
So let me get this right. The Orthodox Church is the one that the Holy Spirit is guiding and protecting from error. So when the Orthodox Church was briefly united with the Catholic Church in the middle ages, was that an error?:confused:
 
So let me get this right. The Orthodox Church is the one that the Holy Spirit is guiding and protecting from error. So when the Orthodox Church was briefly united with the Catholic Church in the middle ages, was that an error?:confused:
Semper Fi Scott,

It is interesting to note that the confirmation of every new Patriarch by the Pope continued, before and after Photius, to be considered, if not indespensible, at least of great importance for the newly elected bishop, to increase his prestige and as a proof of his orthodoxy. Photius himself, though he had usurped the the See of Constantinople, did not fail to send to Rome an embassy to request his confirmation from Pope Nicholas I. The letter of the Bishop-elect contained a profession of orthodox Faith that gained for him the praise of the head of the Church. The confirmation was, however, refused, and in a Roman Council the usurper was excommunicated. It was only after reconciliation, followed by a second excommunication, fulminated by Pope John VIII, that Photius threw away the mask and cast off what he called the yoke of Rome.

Tomster

(U.S.M.C., 1969 - 1972)
 
Actually, Tomster, you have it wrong. What binds the Orthodox, in a word, is a common belief in the Holy Sacrament and in the Faith, “which was delivered once for all to the saints.” (Jude 3)
All Orthodox are in comminuion with one another (except for a few factions which have chosen to remove themselves from communion, e.g. Old Believers, Old Calendarists).
But not everyone in “revolt against the religious authority” of the Pope is in communion with the Orthodox Church (such as Protestants, etc.)

A
That unity of belief be possible there is required an authority, a tribunal capable of pronouncing an infallible decision in matters of faith and morals. Orthodoxy possesses no such tribunal. Orthodoxy admits in principle that, when there arises a doubt relating to faith, the Patriarchs assembled in council have the right to pronounce doctrinal decisions, no such assmbly has ever been held since Michael Cerlarius. In the case of doubt relating to dogma, the first seven general councils are consulted. But who would venture to assert that all the points concerning dogmas and morals have been determined by these councils of the first eight centuries, and that there can be found in them the solution of all the controversies that may arise until the end of time? Moreover, there is an evident contradiction in the Orthodox contention. If general councils had the power to decide finally all controversies in matters of faith, by what right do they reject the authority of the Ecumenical Councils which have been held subsequently to the first seven councils? And finally, if it be true that the first seven councils supply the answer to all controverted questions, please cite the Ecumenical Council which has decided that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
 
I agree. The Pope definitely holds a special place in the Church.
However, papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction simply don’t hold up under scrutiny.
A
“what you bind on earth is bound in heaven,loose on earth is loosed in heaven”…looks pretty simple to me…take contraception for instance,…bishops thur the pope say no,…other churches say yes, …the pope and bishops say this in faith and morals only,…not to mention the" keys" given to the primacy of peter
 
But who would venture to assert that all the points concerning dogmas and morals have been determined by these councils of the first eight centuries, and that there can be found in them the solution of all the controversies that may arise until the end of time?
And yet the Orthodox Church has managed to maintain the Faith of the Apostles, unchanged for 2000 years…without the need for papal infallibility or the Magisterium.
Moreover, there is an evident contradiction in the Orthodox contention. If general councils had the power to decide finally all controversies in matters of faith, by what right do they reject the authority of the Ecumenical Councils which have been held subsequently to the first seven councils? And finally, if it be true that the first seven councils supply the answer to all controverted questions, please cite the Ecumenical Council which has decided that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
I don’t know that there was one, but I do know that the First Council of Constantinople forbade any changes to the Creed without the consent of an ecumenical council…which Rome subsequently did.

The purpose of the Councils was not so much to tell people what to believe, but to combat heresies, and to put into black and white that which was already believed.
“what you bind on earth is bound in heaven,loose on earth is loosed in heaven”…looks pretty simple to me…
It is simple: Christ gave this authority, not to St. Peter alone, but also to the Church (Mt 18:18)
 
The phrase “It is my judgment” is represented by the anti-Papal argument as though James was rendering a judgment, as though a judge does. However, it may also be understood in the sense of “Here’s what I think…”
Calling it “anti-papal” will not give support to your argument. It is very clear that “it is my judgement” indicates authoirty.

It surely is not the same as “this is what I think”. :rolleyes:
 
“It is my judgment” is represented by the anti-Papal argument as though James was rendering a judgment, as though a judge does.
Please don’t misunderstand my purpose here. I am not anti-papal. And I am not trying to convert anyone or get into a fight.

I have nothing but love and respect for the Catholic Church and for the Pope.

I simply have a major hang-up with papal infallibility and universal jurisdiction. (Otherwise I’d convert to catholicism) My thinking is that, if 100,000 devout Catholics (or however many are on this forum) can’t change my mind, then their case simply isn’t strong enough.

A
 
Continued…

Ch. 16 Gregory the Great rejected the title “universal bishop”

. . .
“Consider, I pray you, that in this rash presumption the peace of the whole Church is disturbed, and that it is in contradiction to the grace that is poured out on all in common.” (Registrum Epistolarum, Book V, Letter XVIII)
“If then [Paul] shunned the subjecting of the members of Christ partially to certain heads, as if beside Christ, though this were to the apostles themselves, what will you say to Christ, who is the Head of the universal Church, in the scrutiny of the last judgment, having attempted to put all his members under yourself by the appellation of Universal?” (Ibid.)
“Certainly Peter, the first of the apostles, himself a member of the holy and universal Church, Paul, Andrew, John,—what were they but heads of particular communities? And yet all were members under one Head. And (to bind all together in a short girth of speech) the saints before the law, the saints under the law, the saints under grace, all these making up the Lord’s Body, were constituted as members of the Church, and not one of them has wished himself to be called universal. Now let your Holiness acknowledge to what extent you swell within yourself in desiring to be called by that name by which no one presumed to be called who was truly holy.” (Ibid.). . .
Algernon, what you have missed in this is that while Gregory recognized his own Roman primacy to have universal authority (universal authority which was legally recognized by the Empire through the Council of Chalcedon), he did not believe, as did the promoters of the Ecumenical Patriarch title, that this detracted from the local and regional authority of individual bishops or make them pawns of a higher, legal authority. This is not the true position of the Catholic Church today, or ever; for, unlike the original, medieval claim of the Ecumenical Patriarch title (a political title which was designed to centralize all Church authority in the imperial capital of Constantinople), Gregory and all other bishops of Rome did not see their universal authority in the sense of a “universal bishop,” but in the sense of a final court of appeal IF there was a crisis that could not be settled locally or regionally by the bishops involved.

For example, writing to Bishop John of Syracuse (in Sicily - a Byzantine province at the time) and discussing the crisis connected to the Bishop of Constantinople’s claim of the Ecumenical Patriarch title, Pope Gregory clearly says:
“As to what he (the Bishop of Constantinople) says, that he is subject to the Apostolic See (Rome), I know of no bishop who is not subject to it, if there be any fault found in bishops.” (Pope Gregory I Ep. Ad. Joan.)
So, despite the way modern Eastern Orthodox like to spin it, Gregory clearly did not deny his own Roman primacy.

Also, in 590, Pope Gregory receives this oath from a bishop returning from schism:
“And, therefore, after I discovered the snare of division by which I was held, I humbly and spontaneously was led by Divine grace to return to the unity of the Apostolic See (Rome), lest I be thought to return not through a pure intention but deceitfully, I swear, upon pain of the loss of my order, and under the bond of anathema, and promise to thee, and through thee to St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and to his vicar, the most blessed Gregory or his successors, that I will never, through anyone’s persuasion or in any other way, return to schism, from which I have been delivered through the mercy of the Redeemer, but shall always remain, through all things, in the unity of the Holy Catholic Church and the communion of the Roman Pontiff.” (St. Gregory the Great, Register of Epistles, Book XII, Ep. 7)
For Gregory, unity with the church of Rome was unity with the Catholic Church.

Also, in Book V, Epistle 40 of St Gregory the Great to Eulogius, Patriarch of Alexandria (for, like all his predecessors, Gregory regarded Alexandria as the second position of primacy in the Church, OVER Constantinople), Gregory writes:
“Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the Apostles alone (i.e., Rome) has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one.”
He repeats this idea in Book V, Epistle 39; Book X, Epistle 35; and Book XIII, Epistle 41. What St. Gregory is referring to here by “three places” is the principal of the three original patriarchates of Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch, in that order of primacy, which directly governed the three regions of universal Church (the three regions of the known world: Europe, Africa, and Asia, respectively), with Rome being the final court of appeal. This whole structure of authority flowed from Peter’s authority at Rome, with Alexandria and Antioch participating in that Petrine authority via their ties of discipleship to Petrine Rome. For example, back in 382, Pope St. Damasus had declared:
“Although all the Catholic churches spread abroad throughout the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of the churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, Who says: “You are Peter …(Matt 16:18-19).” In addition to this, there is also the companionship of the vessel of election, the most blessed Apostle Paul who, along with Peter in the city of Rome in the time of Caesar Nero, equally consecrated the above-mentioned holy Roman Church to Christ the Lord; and by their own presence and by their venerable triumph, they set it at the forefront over the others of all the cities of the world. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman church, which has neither stain nor blemish, nor anything like that. The second see is that of Alexandria, consecrated on behalf of the blessed Peter by Mark, his disciple and an Evangelist, who was sent to Egypt by the Apostle Peter, where he preached the word of truth and finished his glorious martyrdom. The third see is that of Antioch, which belonged to the most blessed Peter, where first he dwelled before he came to Rome, and where the name “Christians” was first applied, as to a new people.” (Decree of Damasus # 3, 382 A.D.)
This statement was issued to deny the canon of Constantinople I (381), which tried to make Constantinople a patriarchate and replace the Eastern primacy of Alexandria with Constantinople. Because of this statement, this canon was withdrawn, and the Traditional Eastern primacy of Alexandria was protected, only to be threatened again by the infamous canon 28 of Chalcedon, which was again denied by Pope Leo the Great, who cited this same tradition of the three Petrine patriarchates. But, this original, Apostolic order was consistently disturbed by the theocratic government at Constantinople, which intruded into the Apostolic rights of the native bishops and which eventually succeeded in making both Jerusalem and Constantinople into government-created patriarchs, as opposed to true Apostolic ones like Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch.

What Pope Gregory is saying to Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria above is that, because of the imperial intrusions and weakening of the authority of Alexandria and Antioch, the church of Rome has had to act directly in preserving the universal unity of the Church, as oppose to acting in cooperation with the two other sees established by St. Peter (Alexandria and Antioch), which were intended to maintain the primacy (in accord with Rome) in the regions of the East.

So, understood correctly, Eastern Orthodoxy created the problem. It is not a solution or a correct expression of Apostolic primacy. If you object to what St. Gregory really objected to, you should not become Eastern Orthodox, which recognizes the Bishop of Constantinople to be “Ecumenical Patriarch.” Admittedly, the modern form of the title carries no power and is merely honorary. But, this is not what it was originally designed to do, or how it originally acted when it had the real governmental authority of the Byzantine Empire to back it up.
 
Continued…

. . .
Ch. 17 Pope Honorius

Pg. 160 “‘Pope Honorius, therefore, was never condemned for heresy by the supreme Church authority, but only for negligence [in] allowing a heresy to spread and grow, when he should have denounced it.’” (quoting W. Carroll, The History of Christendom, vol 2, pg. 254)
Pg. 161 “Pope Honorius was not condemned as a Monothelite. Rather, as we have seen, he was anathematized for allowing the heretical Sergius to put orthodox doctrine alongside heretical.”
The text of the Council clearly states that Honorius was anathemetized, not because he failed to condemn Monothelitism, but because he endorsed it: “And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines.” (Sixth Ecumenical Council: Constantinople III, 680-681; Session XIII)
This article by John Pacheco will be helpful:

www.catholic-legate.com/articles/honorius.html

An excerpt to the point:
“The names of those men whose doctrines we execrate are …Sergius… Cyrus…Pyrrhus…Paul and Peter…and…Theodore…all of whom the most holy and thrice blessed Agatho, Pope of Old Rome…rejected, because they are minded contrary to our orthodox faith, all of whom we define are to be subjected to anathema. And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the Holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius…because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines.” (9)
Again, if one carefully reads this text a number of things come to light. First and foremost, Honorius is not mentioned among those who are “minded contrary to our orthodox faith”; that is, “Sergius, Cyrus, Pyrrhus, Paul, Peter and Theodore”. He may share their punishment but not the reason for it. If he were a heretic and positively taught the doctrine of Monothelitism, our opponents must provide some plausible explanation why deference was shown to Honorius by not including him in the list of being “contrary to the orthodox faith”. Unless our opponents wishe to appeal to the Bishop of Rome’s primacy and the supreme office that he held in the Church as a reason for Honorius’ omission, the alternatives are few and far between.
. . . .
 
Let the Council speak for itself.

“And with these we define that there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines.” (Sixth Ecumenical Council: Constantinople III, 680-681; Session XIII)
 
In a word, the only bond which unites the various factions the compose Orthodoxy, and which permits the giving to them of a general name, is the common refusal of obedience to the successor of St. Peter in the See of Rome; it is their persistence in revolt against the religious authority established by Jesus Christ, acknowledged by the Greeks themselves until the 9th century, or more exactly, until the middle of the 11th century, and again admitted at the Coucil of Florence (1438 - 1439 A.D.)
That is a falsehood. On the essentials, the Orthodox churches all teach the same faith, the Orthodox Faith. Furthermore, unlike the church united to Rome, they have been consistent over time, and have not reversed previous dogmatic teachings.
You have just engaged in calumny. Joe
 
what teachings are those?
The teaching on the necessity of explicit membership in the church united to the pope for salvation, for example. That “necessity” was clearly taught both in Boniface VIII’s dogmatic statement at the end of the bull Unam Sanctam in 1302 and in the dogmatic decree of the Council of Florence of 1439. It began to be whittled down in the 19th century by Pius IX’s noninfallible statements about the possibility of excusing “invincible ignorance” on the non-Catholics, and was implictly reversed by Vatican II’s dogmatic decree Lumen Gentium, which stated definitively that nonCatholics could be saved.

Joe
 
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