Pope Fiction

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Then Rome should rescind this strange dogma and return to the orthodoxy of the early Church. 👍
So… that would make you tradition, then.

:rolleyes:

Orthodox people seem to love to chide Catholics for being too authoritarian. Then they reassert themselves as the earthly church authority. 🤷
 
So… that would make you tradition, then.
Huh? God forbid!!!
Orthodox people seem to love to chide Catholics for being too authoritarian. Then they reassert themselves as the earthly church authority.
Nothing is being asserted here my friend. The Orthodox Church simply grieves that Rome has adopted innovative doctrines that were not known to the undivided Church–then they claim "doctrinal development " to justify the innovations.

It grieves me deeply. 😦
 
If you break this down into simple terms, this doctrine really isn’t all that mysterious OR innovative.

First point. All organizations need a final arbiter. A CEO. Someone to say yay or nay. This is simple enough.

Second point. Catholics believe that this final arbiter, when speaking on faith and morals (not history, science, politics, or sociology), in other words, on the issues that are MOST IMPORTANT to the Lord, that the Holy Spirit will guide this arbiter so that he not lead the Church astray.

Would have it another way? Would you prefer that the Church teach that one thing is a mortal sin and the next minute it is not? Do you think that anyone would still follow it? Do you think that the Lord prefers His people to wander in the desert, without knowing what is right and wrong?

I don’t. C.S. Lewis once said I would believe Christianity even if it were not true. I same the same thing for “Pope Fiction.” We are all in stormy seas, and the Lord gave us the means to steer through them clearly. It is called the barque of Peter.
 
All organizations need a final arbiter. A CEO. Someone to say yay or nay. This is simple enough.
Jesus Christ is the best CEO! 🙂

Answer me this:
When Paul writes of Christ as the Head of the church, why does he not make mention of any visible head?
Do you think that the Lord prefers His people to wander in the desert, without knowing what is right and wrong?
The Holy Orthodox Church has been doing a pretty good job for 2000 years without a supreme infallible pontiff. 👍
We are all in stormy seas, and the Lord gave us the means to steer through them clearly. It is called the barque of Peter.
He gave us the prophets, apostles and saints–and yes this includes St Peter, but not exclusive to St Peter.

Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
 
It’s really not clear that these synods were made per a request versus an order. There’s no conclusive evidence either way. The point is that at Pope St. Victor’s request, bishops all over the world called synods to deal with this question. This really isn’t a small thing. For one bishop to call one synod was a rather significant venture, but to have countless do so all at once is remarkable, and speaks very powerfully to at a bare minimum the influence that the bishop of Rome had over all of the bishops.
I think you’re reading too much into this request, Lazerlike42. Our Orthodox canonical tradition gives the Ecumenical Patriarch the honor of convening ecumenical councils, which I think we both agree is more important than convening numerous local synods put together. This coordinating function is a natural function for bishops who hold the various levels of primacy in the Church. Such coordination serves the unity and equality of the bishops by enabling the Church to speak more easily and forcibly with one voice. Therefore, it is a reflection of primacy, which we have never denied, and not of supremacy, which we have.
The suggestion that St. Victor’s excommunication was based on the decision of all of the synods doesn’t dimish this, and perhaps even strengthens it. Even if he did see himself as serving the consensus of the Church, the fact is that he took it upon himself to excommunicate bishops who were not under his Patriarchate, and not a soul denied his ability to do so. Some admonished him for taking so severe an action, and some begged him to reconsider, but nobody denied that he could do so. Victor certainly thought that he, as bishop of Rome, could excommunicate those not inside his Patriarchate, and nobody rejected this - that’s the bottom line.
If Pope Victor was acting out of his interpretation of the consensus of the Church, he could hardly be condemned for trying to exercise universal jurisdiction, as he would not be claiming to do anything more than enforce collegial decision. This was and is well within the rights of the holder of the primacy. However, in cases of erroneous judgment, severe rebukes for undue severity and hastiness would be given, which would be the only true mistake of such a holder of the primacy.
It’s fair to argue that I may be misinterpreting quotes, but the quotes of Flavian and Anatolius have nothing whatsoever to do with titles. They refer to objective authority. Anatolius says that the confirmation of Chalcedon rests entirely in Leo’s authority. Flavian says that a letter from Pope St. Leo will make calling a council “superfluous.” Those are explicit references to things the pope can do, and to the level of his authority, not flowery titles.
I especially enjoy the quote from Flavian. It reveals that ecumenical councils are abnormal in the life of the Church. To this day, the normative way to combat heresy is for bishops (even one exceptional bishop) to arise with clear, inspired expositions of the Orthodox Faith that will render the convening of ecumenical councils, superfluous. Only when this ideal and normative model for dealing with heresies fails, are ecumenical councils called. Thus the statement of Flavian is an advocacy for the normal response to heresy and hardly amounts to an affirmation of unique papal authority.
No Catholic has ever claimed, nor does today, that the Pope is de facto infallible. The point is that infallible means infallible. No matter how anyone tries to spin it, that’s what it means, and Patriarch John meant that the pope was infallible in at least some way. This is consistent with Agatho, writing about the same time, who clearly believed that the pope was infallible at particular times. What’s more, this is consistent with the current Catholic teaching on the infallibility of the pope.
No offense, but arguing that a vague mention of “infallibility” in relation to the Pope means your Church’s interpretation of infallibility, is rather weak. We also have references to a Roman Emperor’s faith as being such that “no error can delude your faith” and yet we don’t develop the doctrine of the infallibility of the holy Emperor of the Romans. I don’t think we should make the same leaps of application in relation to quotes about the Pope.
As far as the claim that Rome was merely a witness to the tradition that was the true arbiter of truth, Tradition, is exactly like Protestant claims that the ecumenical councils were merely witnesses to the true arbiter of the faith, the Scriptures. The problem is the same in each case - there’s no objective judge of just what the Scriptures of the Tradition says. There must be some court of final appeal, and according to the fathers, this is the bishop of Rome. They say in several places that in order to know whether one remains faithful to the tradition, one must remain in communion with the bishop of Rome.
You are correct to see similarities between appeals to a vague “Tradition” and appeals to a vague “Scripture.” However, the Tradition we appeal to is not vague, but is the same Tradition that St. Vincent of Lerins advocates as the Church’s final authority, viz., the Tradition that has been held by the Church at all times, in all places and wherever the faithful have been present. In short, we appeal to the Tradition of the Church. You see, like Catholicism, we have an ultimate authority in Orthodoxy. It’s just that our ultimate authority is the Tradition of the Church that finds expression in every age and not a Roman Pontiff who can err at any time in any area of the Faith.
There are of course other examples of this. In the doctrine of the fathers, to hold to tradition is to maintain communion with Rome.
In the doctrine of the Holy Fathers, to hold to Tradition is to maintain communion with all the apostolic Churches, where this Tradition is preserved:

Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition, which they handed down to those to whom, they did commit the Churches?” – St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 4, 1.

Rome, as the image of the ideal apostolic church is logically singled out for emphasis by St. Irenaeus in other statements. However, his statement about agreeing with Rome means no more than this quote, advocating looking/agreeing with the other apostolic churches in order to know the truth. In fact, encouraging Christians to agree with apostolic Churches in order to maintain the Faith was a primitive form of what we know today as the Vincentian canon – believe the Tradition that has been passed down by the apostles and professed by the faithful. In order to fulfill this, communion with the apostolic churches, especially Rome, is encouraged. This obligation of communion extends to the Bishop of Rome, who, like everyone else, must conform his confession to that of the glorious, God-bearing martyrs and apostles, especially the Chiefs of the Apostles, Peter and Paul, who left their apostolic teaching in the Roman Church (and indeed of any apostolic Church they founded). A failure to do this by the Bishop of Rome results in heresy. This possibility of heresy on the part of the Pope makes it rather unlikely that your quote from St. Irenaeus and others like them are to be interpreted as advocating communion with the Bishop of Rome as the automatic, final arbiter of truth instead of advocating communion with apostolic Churches who hold to Tradition, in order to hold to Tradition ourselves, which has always been the Orthodox interpretation.
Now according to the principles you put forth of holding to tradition, the final arbiter of just what tradition is would be essentially what everyone in the Church believed, but there were times - such as prior to the Council of Nicaea - where virtually the entire Church recognized Arianism to be faithful to tradition. Something else is needed to be obedient to, such as a Council.
The great defenders of the Church during the Arian crisis used as their chief weapon the Orthodox Catholic Faith professed by the apostles and reaffirmed at the Council of Nicea. The Pope, while appealed to for help along with other bishops, wasn’t treated as an automatic arbiter of orthodox teaching during this crisis or any other.
The pope can also be that something else, and I believe history shows has been at times.
Any Orthodox bishop could be a living instrument of Holy Tradition in the condemnation of heretics and the spread of the Faith, around which the faithful gather as a bright star. This past Sunday was dedicated to that wonderful “Star of Orthodoxy”, St. Gregory Palamas. So, obviously, Orthodox bishops can be raised up to defend the Faith in an extraordinary fashion. However, our discussion is not about Popes being good defenders of the Faith, but of Popes having the power to create dogmas. We Orthodox are still waiting for examples of papal dogmas in the first millennium or even clear affirmations that such dogmatic statements could be made by the Pope.

God bless,

Adam
 
In the quotation you responded to, I was not citing Leo’s Tome as an example of infallibility. I was defending against the claim that the Council didn’t consider the Tome of any authority because they penned their own definition. My point was simply that there have been other times, in post-schism history, where a Council penned something supplementary to the statement of a Pope without believing that he lacked authority.
Sorry, I assumed that you were applying infallibility to the tome as the simple authority of a bishop proves nothing for your case that Popes have always possessed the ability to form dogmas for the Church.
But by letting them get together, vote on things, etc., they were able to come to the right conclusions - by virtue of the universality of the Council - and to have a greater investment in them, having played a role.
This is just speculation on why history doesn’t record any examples or statements supporting a dogma of your Church, which our Church quiet rightly pleads ignorance of. Until you provide evidence of papal dogmas in the first millennium or statements acknowledging the possibility of their creation, our pleas of ignorance of this new power of the Roman Pontiff has more weight as the historically and theologically responsible response to papal infallibility than the above speculations.
Please don’t use this caricature when discussing the Catholic Church… it does nobody any good. If we want to achieve that true unity that Christ called for, we need to be seeking to understand one another in a very real and true way and to progress forward from there.
I’ve been very clear on the limits of papal infallibility on this forum and elsewhere. I continually make it clear that it applies to declaring dogmas and nothing else. However, the problem arises when you and many of your fellow churchmen make such confident statements about how the spotless apostolic faith of Rome causes the Pope to be doctrinally right and serve as the final arbiter of orthodoxy. As you know, one cannot affirm that the Roman See is the inerrant judge of orthodoxy (a function she can only exercise through her bishop) when her bishop is fallible. Such an arbiter would be no better than any other bishop and begs the question of why Christ would establish such a useless office in his Church. I suspect the problem with your Church’s papal claims are that they are based on a rather liberal (as in generous) understanding of the infallibility of the Pope, while history and Roman Catholic dogma bespeak a more conservative (as in limited) application of this infallibility. I briefly alluded to this on the “Papal Problems” thread, where I opined that this contradiction is common par for an innovative teaching, which must co-exist uneasily with history and even official teachings as it moves to establish its innovation completely in the Church it has unfortunately embedded itself in.

God bless,

Adam
 
Would you prefer that the Church teach that one thing is a mortal sin and the next minute it is not? Do you think that anyone would still follow it?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t skipping mass on Sunday used to be a mortal sin?
 
How is this different from the claim that the Greeks have gotten right, while the Latins have gotten it wrong? That’s just as hard to swallow–yet one is correct and one is not.

Anyway, besides the piling up of quotes by either side, this article looks a the the logical consistency of the claims made by both sides and shows how the Orthodox claims fail the test of internal logic.

rtforum.org/lt/lt133.html#Harrison

There’s a lot of personal backstory, but when you get to the bolded propositions the main meat of the argument is taken up.
One of that backstory undermines his position on the Catholicity of the Orthodox Church: he complains the Divine Liturgy was in a language he didn’t understand (in 1971), whereas less than ten years earlier, did he know Latin?

He also ignores that those rejected councils also include the false Constantinople IV of 869, condemned by the true Constantinople IV of 879, which is accepted by the Orthodox, but not as ecumenical. That is before 1054. A problem with his “logic.”

If hatred of the Pope of Rome was the problem why the Orthodox do we not speak of 8 Ecumenical Councils, as the Pope approved Constantinople IV 879 (until the Investiture Constraversy AFTER 1054 made Rome change its mind. Btw, the scanty nature of the records of the 869 council’s definitions, canons etc, itself should show the disregard it was held until then).

Yes, apologists like him decry the Orthodox position that the Church recognizes a true Council. They want some external sign like Vatican infallibility to save them the leap of Faith.

Someone said, “I know My Own, and My Own know Me.”
 
So… that would make you tradition, then.

:rolleyes:

Orthodox people seem to love to chide Catholics for being too authoritarian. Then they reassert themselves as the earthly church authority. 🤷
That’s because we are.

It’s not authority we chide. Just autocracy.
 
If you break this down into simple terms, this doctrine really isn’t all that mysterious OR innovative.

First point. All organizations need a final arbiter. A CEO. Someone to say yay or nay. This is simple enough.

Second point. Catholics believe that this final arbiter, when speaking on faith and morals (not history, science, politics, or sociology), in other words, on the issues that are MOST IMPORTANT to the Lord, that the Holy Spirit will guide this arbiter so that he not lead the Church astray.

Would have it another way? Would you prefer that the Church teach that one thing is a mortal sin and the next minute it is not? Do you think that anyone would still follow it? Do you think that the Lord prefers His people to wander in the desert, without knowing what is right and wrong?

I don’t. C.S. Lewis once said I would believe Christianity even if it were not true. I same the same thing for “Pope Fiction.” We are all in stormy seas, and the Lord gave us the means to steer through them clearly. It is called the barque of Peter.
Yes, the Vatican loves the CEO model. The Church goes by the chairman of the board model.

The fact that the Orthodox have survived 2 thousand years without the CEO seems to persistently ignored by the Vatican. We haven’t wandered off into the desert. The West: Greast Schism, Babylonian Captivity, Reformation and Counter-Reformation, Vatican II and Sede Vacansim,…
 
I am returning to this thread after taking some time off for awhile. I have yet to see on solid thread of proof showing me that a Church Father said all Bishops were equal.

The Council of Constantinople

“The bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honor after the bishop of Rome, because his city is New Rome” (canon 3 [A.D. 381]).
 
I’m mixed up thats for sure. Both us Catholics and you Orthodox have great arguments. It is hard for me to discern who is right and wrong. How confusing?
 
I’m mixed up thats for sure. Both us Catholics and you Orthodox have great arguments. It is hard for me to discern who is right and wrong. How confusing?
I was once in the same position as you, so I know how it feels. I’ll remember you in a prayer. The best advice I can give is to focus on prayer and developing your spiritual life. If we cannot reach the purification of our heart through repentance, our religion, even if it is the true one, will not benefit us. Btw, feel free to visit any of our Orthodox Churches and talk to the clergy as they can help you more than we on the forum can. 🙂

God bless,

Adam
 
I was once in the same position as you, so I know how it feels. I’ll remember you in a prayer. The best advice I can give is to focus on prayer and developing your spiritual life. If we cannot reach the purification of our heart through repentance, our religion, even if it is the true one, will not benefit us. Btw, feel free to visit any of our Orthodox Churches and talk to the clergy as they can help you more than we on the forum can. 🙂
Thank You, right now I am exploring my faith and trust that God will put me right with prayer and time.
 
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