Pope Francis and negativity

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ShrodingersCat said:
I like pope francis, but I respect your opinion.

Just a musing on your other point. I grew up in a home in which my parents regularly critisised the priests in the parish.
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I was fortunate @ShrodingersCat in that my father always had a great respect for priests , and it rubbed off on me .
But I am aware of gossip about parish priests , in fact about every parish priest I have had . Some of it has been downright evil .

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We Need to Stop Gossiping About Our Priests

I have been in active ministry for over ten years. I’ve had occasional breaks as my vocation has required, but I’ve worked with a variety of people and priests over those years. In all …
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Hoosier-Daddy said:
I also think when the Pope weighs in on political matters such as communism and walls. Offers opinions on birth control for Zika areas etc. This is indeed open to criticism and honestly I think the Pope himself encourages it. At least his apparent philosophy does.
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I agree with you there, that this Pope to some degree encourages some thought and debate. He is Jesuit, so that would be natural. They stir the pot.

However, the Pope’s thoughts on various social issues or even on topics like “how to pray” can be debated while still believing that the Pope is good at heart, means well and is not leading people away from God. We aren’t expected to agree like little robots with everything the Pope says or does, but it’s more the attitude of how people approach it. There are people who don’t just disagree with Pope Francis on one or two things, but they are really afraid or outraged at him or think he is not a good person, which is what I object to.

I think for every Pope in my lifetime I could find a few issues on which I disagreed with him or thought he could have handled stuff better (except maybe Pope JPI, who wasn’t Pope long enough to do anythng controversial). But I didn’t find any of those Popes alarming, nor did I actively dislike them or think they were bad people.
 
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This is not just hearsay: have none of you read the news? Or heard McCarrick and them speak?
 
Please provide direct evidence, other than something someone else said in print or verbally to you personally, that you have, supporting your contention that the Pope has engaged in wrongdoing. For example, did you personally witness the Pope doing something wrong? Do you have a photograph of the Pope engaging in wrongdoing? An audio or video recording of the wrongdoing?

Something Someone Else Said about the Pope is hearsay. Sorry.
 
I am glad popes are involved in politics. Thank God Saint John Paul II got involved in Polish politics and helped to end Communinism there.
I do not agree with the pope on everything. I speak my mind about it but I also like a lot of what he has said and say so when I agree with him too.
I do trust that the Cardinals and the Holy Spirit knew what they were doing when he was elected and I respect him and his office.
 
Aquinas11 said:
Peter Kreeft on love as kindness:
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There was no mention of “love as kindness”. You can’t just make up your own words in substitution of what was actually said by the person who was questioning Kreeft.

The context of that particular question was about being judgemental and people who say Jesus accepted everyone as they were.
 
1Lord1Faith said:
people who say Jesus accepted everyone as they were.
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Right which is synonymous with kindness. Also see OP , the context of discussion is not criticizing Pope and then citing the love is kindness passage.
 
Hoosier-Daddy said:
I’m quite critical of Pope Francis. We live in a different world. One where the Pope himself engages press on an airplane, has a Twitter account and where other bishops publically put forth questions, criticisms, and theological musings. This is a different animal than how the church led and taught its followers for thousands of years. And there is a vast literate and educated flock in the first world. Also, the dont criticize the Pope or even the parish priest mentality in my opinion has led to an environment in which abuse has flourished. I also think when the Pope weighs in on political matters such as communism and walls. Offers opinions on birth control for Zika areas etc. This is indeed open to criticism and honestly I think the Pope himself encourages it. At least his apparent philosophy does. My children are raised in a traditional Catholic household. Homeschooled with Catholic curriculum and I’m quite confident it teaches them good theology to see and engage in criticism. And to see their parents do so as well. I think a true Catholic schooled in the faith and believing in Jesus Christ, aware of history and present is able and right to criticize this Pope or any pope.
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When the ‘Jesus story’ is so embedded in you as it is for Catholics generally, you can’t help but see these arguments against the Pope as mirroring the arguments against Jesus ministry.

How can you be so confident that the things he says are wrong based only on that they seem different to ‘the good old days’ of Catholic teaching? Jesus was a ‘different animal’ too to how the people of God had taught its followers for thousands of years.

As for political matters, for some 11 centuries (Papal states 8th to 19th) the Church were the political force in varying measures. I suspect you only want the Pope to butt out of politics you like. Abortion, euthanasia, no fault divorce, medical ethics issues etc I suspect you’d be ok with him speaking out.
Hoosier-Daddy said:
Homeschooled with Catholic curriculum and I’m quite confident it teaches them good theology to see and engage in criticism. And to see their parents do so as well. I think a true Catholic schooled in the faith and believing in Jesus Christ, aware of history and present is able and right to criticize this Pope or any pope.
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That’s a mighty audacious claim! Can you seriously think your curriculum could put you up there with the theological expertise and historical knowledge of the Magisterium?
 
“Charity” is the translation of “Agape” a greek concept of Love, unconditional and selfless Love, that the Church Fathers identified with the Love that God has.
 
AdamP88 said:
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Emeraldlady:
I feel the negativity towards Pope Francis very painfully. My young adult children are involved in the Catholic community which is wonderful in our diocese. The problem is they often hear negativity about Pope Francis from some quarters of that community (not the clergy or the nuns) and I find I have a fiery passion to diffuse those ideas for the sake of their faith.
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I don’t think it’s appropriate for adults involved in youth ministry to speak in this way during their work.
That said, a few comments about the Pope shouldn’t have a serious affect on their faith.
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It seems to me that every parish and community within the Church has a ‘faction’ that is anti Pope Francis that only just fall short of regarding him an antipope. If the Pope ceases to represent Jesus authority for us we are essentially just like a Protestant. Martin Luther wasn’t famous at the time he made his few comments but the power of undermining the authority of the Church led to a cancer of peoples faith so powerful that they rejected the whole Church.
AdamP88 said:
It’s a different faith. Years ago not many Catholics were educated in theology and philosophy. Today that number is much greater.
With respect, while it may be your view that we don’t comment or voice concerns about a Pope’s actions, I don’t believe we are “not allowed” to comment on, or be worried about the state of the Church.
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I’m not talking about commenting on the state of the Church. I was born at the beginning of the 60’s and heard much comment regarding the state of the Church in the modern climate. The whole point of Vatican II was to assist the Church in living in this new world. I can’t abide the theory that Vatican II caused the modern crisis when truthfully it was the modern crisis that caused Vatican II if Catholics really cared to learn about the build up to the Council.
AdamP88 said:
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AdamP88:
There has been a real negativity towards love in some quarters of Catholicism and efforts to make love be something other than it really is
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You’ll have to support this statement or expand on it a bit. It’s a bit vague.
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Not that I want to derail the thread with it, but I find Amoris Laetitia (On love in the family) to be a truly Christian guidance. It addresses how to love in the many different and difficult situations that families face today. People were genuinely needing some guidance in how to love because exclusion and rejection have not advanced Christ and has lead to relativism and confusion in Christian families.
 
To say that this Pope is unfairly criticized is not a accurate view. Many people who I respect and the Catholic world respects are criticizing him. Patrick coffin and Matt fradd have been very outspoken. And it’s extremely obvious that in the 5 or so years of this pontificate the tone has changed and criticism which was almost unheard of in mainstream Catholicism is now very common. There is a reason for this. It isn’t happening in a vacuum. Some of it is the mishandling of scandals, and some of it is just strait theology and political views. I dont like the popes political or theological ideas. But Pope Francis does not claim to be a theologian. He recognizes that there are people on both sides of theological debates that know more about it than he does. Last fall I was at a papal audience. I’ve been to audiences of the last 3 popes. It’s a great experience to see the vicar of Christ. Its holy. But Pope Francis challenges my exercise of charity. I think politically he comes from a very different worldview that south America provides. It does not mesh well with western politics. And theologically? Well I dont have the bandwidth to handle that right now. Love him or not, one has to admit that much like trump, his supporters and detractors probably wish he would say less sometimes.
 
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Emeraldlady said:
Not that I want to derail the thread with it, but I find Amoris Laetitia (On love in the family) to be a truly Christian guidance. It addresses how to love in the many different and difficult situations that families face today. People were genuinely needing some guidance in how to love because exclusion and rejection have not advanced Christ and has lead to relativism and confusion in Christian families.
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I find AL very very needed as well. In fact almost all of it is incredibly solid. Which is why 1 footnote is so troublesome. I just ask myself why? Why?
 
Aquinas11 said:
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1Lord1Faith:
people who say Jesus accepted everyone as they were.
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Right which is synonymous with kindness. Also see OP , the context of discussion is not criticizing Pope and then citing the love is kindness passage.
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What are you trying to say? That kindness is not actually a virtue? What do you understand to be the theological meaning of kindness?
 
Flopfoot said:
TBH I’m just waiting till we get someone new (not that I want him to die though). I’m bored of this pope
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What if Pope Francis is indeed driven by the Holy Spirit in the mission of the 3rd millenium Christianity. Do you feel confident to say that the Holy Spirit is boring also?
 
Hoosier-Daddy said:
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Emeraldlady:
Not that I want to derail the thread with it, but I find Amoris Laetitia (On love in the family) to be a truly Christian guidance. It addresses how to love in the many different and difficult situations that families face today. People were genuinely needing some guidance in how to love because exclusion and rejection have not advanced Christ and has lead to relativism and confusion in Christian families.
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I find AL very very needed as well. In fact almost all of it is incredibly solid. Which is why 1 footnote is so troublesome. I just ask myself why? Why?
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That’s because that issue has been one of the troublesome areas needing addressing in the light of our times. Priests have been struggling with it pastorally since the 70’s. It was not changing any doctrine. It was allowing for an internal forum where the Holy Spirit contributes directly to the situation of a couple in their faith life. It’s allowed for in a number of different situations regarding people and the sacramental life, so not a new ‘invention’.
 
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