Pope Francis and orthodoxy vs TLM only Catholics

[P8TRIOT]

I am re-posting this with the hopes that it can be addressed without the perjorative sounding title, however I feel the message is still important:

“NOW HERE THIS”, to all of my brothers and sisters of the traditional persuasion of the Roman Rite I have something to say to you.

I routinely attend the TLM at 9:00am at our Parish of St. Josephs here in Modesto CA and absolutely PREFER and love it, I “feel” so much more at peace and a sense of the sacred. There used to be a time where I would focus on nothing but Liturgical abuses and go around judging and castigating those who didn’t share my view of liturgy and worship. That was sort of a long winded preface yet I felt it necessary.

Patrick Madrid on EWTN Radio correctly pointed out that there is a poison that is permeating many good and faithful Catholics (even some of my own close friends) which I anecdotally have experienced this. The desire to have orthodox and holy worship through the TLM is most definitely a laudable goal and one that I share, yet so many Catholics use the Liturgy as the sole canon by which they measure other Catholics and now our new HOLY FATHER! News flash, the Pope and his contemporary’s (other Bishops among whom he is first) absolutely have the authority to augment, change, add-to, reinstate and restore within the framework of Canon law.

In my preface I made mention of how I “feel” much more holy and a sense of the sacred in the TLM. I used this term for a reason because I know this will catch my brothers and sisters in the TLM ‘s attention. We often point out many of the abuses that occur in the more “charismatic” “Life-Teen” masses which are also the result of "feelings”. A Lot of youth leaders and teens want to “feel” more “upbeat” and more “engaged” or just “feel” good. You see, WE, just like them can be so motivated by "feelings” that we throw the proverbial “baby OUT with the bathwater” but those ("feelings”) are not always the best way by which to measure the quality of a thing even IF they are motivated by orthodox intentions. Though "feelings” are a faculty given to us from God, we do not allow ourselves to be governed by them. We owe our allegiance to our Supreme Pontiff not to ourselves and our opinion of “how things should be”.

Should we endeavor to spread the good news of the TLM and to do our best to promote it? you bet! should we allow such desires to overwhelm our respect for our other brothers and sisters in Christ who perhaps may not be of the same mind as us? and to set ourselves up holier-than-thou looking down our noses at the other expression of the Sacred Liturgy ie. Novus Ordo which IS ALSO a beautiful and worthy expression of the mass? I think you can answer that. Lean neither to the right or left of the barque of Peter for you can fall off either side (SSPX), stay straight in line with Chair of Peter (FSSP etc.).

Vivat nostra Summus Pontifex Franciscum

 

[Megan7]

I am re-posting this with the hopes that it can be addressed without the perjorative sounding title, however I feel the message is still important:

“NOW HERE THIS”, to all of my brothers and sisters of the traditional persuasion of the Roman Rite I have something to say to you.

I routinely attend the TLM at 9:00am at our Parish of St. Josephs here in Modesto CA and absolutely PREFER and love it, I “feel” so much more at peace and a sense of the sacred. There used to be a time where I would focus on nothing but Liturgical abuses and go around judging and castigating those who didn’t share my view of liturgy and worship. That was sort of a long winded preface yet I felt it necessary.

Patrick Madrid on EWTN Radio correctly pointed out that there is a poison that is permeating many good and faithful Catholics (even some of my own close friends) which I anecdotally have experienced this. The desire to have orthodox and holy worship through the TLM is most definitely a laudable goal and one that I share, yet so many Catholics use the Liturgy as the sole canon by which they measure other Catholics and now our new HOLY FATHER! News flash, the Pope and his contemporary’s (other Bishops among whom he is first) absolutely have the authority to augment, change, add-to, reinstate and restore within the framework of Canon law.

In my preface I made mention of how I “feel” much more holy and a sense of the sacred in the TLM. I used this term for a reason because I know this will catch my brothers and sisters in the TLM ‘s attention. We often point out many of the abuses that occur in the more “charismatic” “Life-Teen” masses which are also the result of "feelings”. A Lot of youth leaders and teens want to “feel” more “upbeat” and more “engaged” or just “feel” good. You see, WE, just like them can be so motivated by "feelings” that we throw the proverbial “baby OUT with the bathwater” but those ("feelings”) are not always the best way by which to measure the quality of a thing even IF they are motivated by orthodox intentions. Though "feelings” are a faculty given to us from God, we do not allow ourselves to be governed by them. We owe our allegiance to our Supreme Pontiff not to ourselves and our opinion of “how things should be”.

Should we endeavor to spread the good news of the TLM and to do our best to promote it? you bet! should we allow such desires to overwhelm our respect for our other brothers and sisters in Christ who perhaps may not be of the same mind as us? and to set ourselves up holier-than-thou looking down our noses at the other expression of the Sacred Liturgy ie. Novus Ordo which IS ALSO a beautiful and worthy expression of the mass? I think you can answer that. Lean neither to the right or left of the barque of Peter for you can fall off either side (SSPX), stay straight in line with Chair of Peter (FSSP etc.).

Vivat nostra Summus Pontifex Franciscum

Will read later & add my opinion, thanks

 

[grasscutter]

Good and interesting post, P8triot.

 

[P8TRIOT]

Good and interesting post, P8triot.

Thank you @grasscutter, I just have gotten to the point where I felt it necessary to address some my TLM brothers and sisters. I know from experience how quickly one can get engaged in casting judgements on those who do not fall in line with what I feel to be the more orthodox expressions of the mass. Again, the beauty of being Catholic is that it is not up for a popular vote, we do not invent nor do we decide which Liturgy is valid and which is not we ONLY need to listen and follow what our Pope and bishops in union with him tell us. It is time to stop creating “factions” within the Church WE ARE ALL of the same body the universal Church, simply liking TLM does not make me or anyone else a better more faithful Catholic.

 

[P8TRIOT]

Good and interesting post, P8triot.

Thank you @grasscutter, I just have gotten to the point where I felt it necessary to address some my TLM brothers and sisters. I know from experience how quickly one can get engaged in casting judgements on those who do not fall in line with what I feel to be the more orthodox expressions of the mass. Again, the beauty of being Catholic is that it is not up for a popular vote, we do not invent nor do we decide which Liturgy is valid and which is not we ONLY need to listen and follow what our Pope and bishops in union with him tell us. It is time to stop creating “factions” within the Church WE ARE ALL of the same body the universal Church, simply liking TLM does not make me or anyone else a better more faithful Catholic.

 

[mgsk]

Your title still sounds odd. There’s nothing that stops a Catholic who only assists at the TLM from being orthodox in his beliefs. It’s the only Mass I attend, and I can assure you that it has nothing to do with feelings. It has everything to do with liturgy and its organic development.

But how many TLM-only Catholics even post on CAF? A few, sure, but I suspect we’re all far more actve elsewhere. You’re mostly going to be preaching to the choir.

 

[P8TRIOT]

Your title still sounds odd. There’s nothing that stops a Catholic who only assists at the TLM from being orthodox in his beliefs. It’s the only Mass I attend, and I can assure you that it has nothing to do with feelings. It has everything to do with liturgy and its organic development.

But how many TLM-only Catholics even post on CAF? A few, sure, but I suspect we’re all far more actve elsewhere. You’re mostly going to be preaching to the choir.

There’s nothing that stops a Catholic who only assists at the TLM from being orthodox in his beliefs

I mostly agree with this sentiment, however, TLM does not ALWAYS equal orthodoxy was more the point of the title, for example SSPX. They exclusively celebrate the TLM and maintain eny expression outside of that is anethema and they remain defiant to the Holy Father which is the anithesis of orthodoxy.

Juxtapose FSSP and SSPX regarding the sacred Liturgy. Superficially they are indistinguishable and yet one is orthodox and one is not, between the two FSSP is the only orthodox group for the sole purpose that they have remained in line with the Chair of Peter.

You’re mostly going to be preaching to the choir.

perhaps, however this is why I have posted this thread within the “Traditional Catholicism” subject, because I know well enough that there ARE some here who do not share our view of orthodoxy and so it is an effort to appeal and have a friendly and candid discourse with them.

 

[LSK]

I think I get what is being shared but I want to make sure.

There are people in Holy Mother Church who regard their love of the TLM as proof positive they are better Catholics than the rest of us. Their love for the liturgy is worn as a kind of badge that states “Real Catholic Here”. They become a bit defensive when it is suggested that those of us who admire the beauty of the TLM but still attend Mass in the Vernacular.

I remember, recently, watching someone from my beautiful parish pick up the laminated prayer cards in the pews. The cards have the new translations on them and, for those people still stumbling over the Nicene Creed, are there to be helpful. The person, who I know is a loving and faithful Catholic, looked at the prayers and said, “I don’t know any of these. I go to the Latin Mass”. The tone was just shy of disdainful.

I know I have to watch myself because I absolutely love to study the Catechism. I find it so rich and full of deep spirituality that I find it to be much more fascinating that studying Sacred Scripture. I have to be careful that I do not become one of those Catholics who believe that unless you know the CCC inside and out you are not really as good a Catholic as me.

I was away from Holy Mother Church for many years. I know now that I cannot live without the Eucharist. That being said, if the Bishop of Rome tells me that I must hop up the aisle on one foot while humming O Salutoris in order to receive Our Lord, then I am going to start hopping.

I think, and again I may be off base, that the original poster is reminding us that we love Holy Mother Church and our Loyalty should be to Her and Her Bridegroom, Jesus Christ and not to a page in the CCC or a specific liturgical practice.

am I on track?

 

[Francoist]

I think your thread title is needlessly divisive. I’m an orthodox Catholic in communion with and obedience to Pope Francis and I only attend the TLM (diocesan). There’s not conflict between any of that.

 

[erlembald]

I think I get what is being shared but I want to make sure.

There are people in Holy Mother Church who regard their love of the TLM as proof positive they are better Catholics than the rest of us. Their love for the liturgy is worn as a kind of badge that states “Real Catholic Here”. They become a bit defensive when it is suggested that those of us who admire the beauty of the TLM but still attend Mass in the Vernacular.

I remember, recently, watching someone from my beautiful parish pick up the laminated prayer cards in the pews. The cards have the new translations on them and, for those people still stumbling over the Nicene Creed, are there to be helpful. The person, who I know is a loving and faithful Catholic, looked at the prayers and said, “I don’t know any of these. I go to the Latin Mass”. The tone was just shy of disdainful.

It’s sadly true that there are those who wear their love of the EF as if were a badge of honour, like the Pharisees did in Christ’s times.
However, there are also those who scorn and mock their fellow Catholics who love the EF. Karl Rahner, one of the most famous, influential and modernist theologians of the 20st century and peritus at Vatican 2 called those who preferred the EF “in their humanity failed existences”. This kind of vitriol may not be as commonly expressed as it used to be, but it still is there.

 

[P8TRIOT]

I think I get what is being shared but I want to make sure…
…I think, and again I may be off base, that the original poster is reminding us that we love Holy Mother Church and our Loyalty should be to Her and Her Bridegroom, Jesus Christ and not to a page in the CCC or a specific liturgical practice.
am I on track?

^^^ THIS, in other words we owe our allegiance to the Holy See and not to ONE particular type of liturgy. As a good friend has told me"Our loyalty must be to Truth and not to a specific liturgical practice"

I think your thread title is needlessly divisive. I’m an orthodox Catholic in communion with and obedience to Pope Francis and I only attend the TLM (diocesan). There’s not conflict between any of that.

It is not my intention to dispute that, I am not intending to be devisive this is meant to be instructive as well as, yes, a challenge to many of the faithful who like myself have a preference and proclivity for the TLM. I apologize for any misunderstanding, this was also an indictment against myself as well:sad_yes:. When I say “TLM only Catholics” this is meant to address those who appear to be in spirit much like the SSPX or the Sedevacantists. To be clear, if you decide that you will only go to TLM I have no problem with that since I much prefer it myself. My problem is with Catholics who attack our Holy Father Francis based on their liturgical litmus test by which they measure him and unfairly I should add since he has only just been inaugurated and we know little about him.

This thread was percipitated by my astonished reaction to Catholics already attacking our Holy Father based solely on their perception. This is meant to be a defense for our Holy Father not a wedge which to further divide factions within the Church. I hope I have made it clearer and I again apologize for any misunderstanding.

 

[Francoist]

This thread was percipitated by my astonished reaction to Catholics already attacking our Holy Father based solely on their perception. This is meant to be a defense for our Holy Father not a wedge which to further divide factions within the Church. I hope I have made it clearer and I again apologize for any misunderstanding.

I can understand that. I think that they are reacting in this unfortunate way because they are frightened. I wish to have compassion about it but I too find the fact that they are projecting these thoughts and fears publicly for the whole world to see quite astonishing.

 

[LSK]

I think you may be right…I also noticed I did not write what I meant very well in that I have had the smugness of ‘you only go to the ‘regular’ Mass’ used on me as though I am not a very good Catholic because I do attend the Mass in the vernacular.

And I agree - theologians who have put down those who love the Latin Mass should be ashamed of themselves. That is hardly a Catholic attitude!