Pope Francis: better for families to be tired, struggling than isolated, seeking luxury [CWN]

[LongingSoul]

But none of this is easy, and it is possible to become isolated without noticing it happening, especially when dealing with stuff at home.

T

When Pope Francis speaks we have to try and deliberately pan out in our perspective to get the gist. He is a big picture thinker and very astute at defining ideological motives. I feel confident that when he speaks of ‘isolationism’, it isn’t about being isolated as a stay at home Mum… which is common and sometimes necessary for the welfare of the family. It’s about an attitude that’s really focused on comfort and luxury where a couples whole energy is directed towards shoring up worldly goods and experiences.

It’s interesting that he made this speech to an audience of Mexican people who we generally consider poor and somewhat primitive compared to the affluent Western standard. The thing is that the attitude he speaks of can manifest in any community, rich or poor. It can manifest in the designer family model which might dictate no children or one accessory child. But we also know that it isn’t about family size solely because he has already spoken of the selfishness of having lots of children ‘as a Catholic ideal’ in itself. That also leads to entitlement issues based on perceived holiness.

The type of families he is talking about are probably not those who attend weekly Mass or participate in Parish and community life in any way. They feel independent by virtue of their wealth and pull away from any desire for that community network. They see that network only as a safety net if they crash and burn in their independent life.

 

[bitterhope]

My apologies, but I don’t know what drs stands for. In our case, we are active and always have been in our various parishes. However, I think you can be an introvert and live a holy life. We are active in our current parish but we have never established close relationships with any parishioners or neighbors. It’s really the way God made us. As for having a large family, fertility issues put a stop to that. I certainly hope the Pope would not see our family as self-absorbed. And even if we wanted to adopt we couldn’t because we had a biological special needs child.

Drs is doctors

What does the size of your family have to do with anything?

 

[Tablefor9]

And then there is the healthcare crisis!

This is hardly new.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Tell that to Pope Francis. He started it.

Ha!

Even so it needs to be a banned topic. It really REALLY does. If only we could figure out how to get the mods to see family size as having some sort of “medical” implication.

 

[1990Domer]

I come from a military family and work with military wives & military docs. When the ship hits the sand, these people don’t have to have 20 years as your next door neighbor to help each other out.

We’ve lived next to our neighbors for, oh, 15 years. We tried reaching out, but what happens when you are rejected? I swear that our neighbors have silos built around their properties. Heck, we caught grief from both neighbors because we accidentally mowed part of their yard (and they didn’t like the height we kept our grass). Their kids were out of the house and they didn’t want to be bothered with a young family. Then I caught heck when a couple times my kid ran after butterflies into their yard and stepped on their flowers. He was about 4. He was fast and I was chasing him and trying to teach him to stay in our yard. We really couldn’t win.

It sounds like my BIL/SIL may be the military exception, not the rule.

 

[jmjZelie]

Where does the perception that this is about family size come from, anyway?

Pope Francis was talking about not purposefully excluding children or seeking luxury.

And to persevere in the sometimes painful struggles of family life.

I don’t see how any of that would lead to a perception that this calls for justification of family size.

 

[jmjZelie]

Ha!

Even so it needs to be a banned topic. It really REALLY does. If only we could figure out how to get the mods to see family size as having some sort of “medical” implication.

Convert,

I really disagree with you on seeking to ban a topic.

If more topics get banned, then what is the point of the forum.

You may choose not to engage in any topic you dislike. But please allow others to choose for themselves.

Edited to add: for some reason there is a smilie in the title of my post that I don’t know how it got there, but I cannot seem to extract. Sorry for the confusion. I do not intend to communicate any feelings, but only the plain meaning of my words.

 

[1990Domer]

Drs is doctors

What does the size of your family have to do with anything?

I thought I would be seen as self-absorbed for not having a bigger family and by choosing to make sure my son’s financial welfare is secure given the fact he has a disability and has no family that will be around when he is older to help him in life. I felt it was our duty to make sure he is not dependent on an already taxed system of social services.

 

[Convert_in_99]

Convert,

I really disagree with you on seeking to ban a topic.

If more topics get banned, then what is the point of the forum.

You may choose not to engage in any topic you dislike. But please allow others to choose for themselves.

It’s to prevent unecessary arguing, fighting and hurt feelings. If both sides of an issue are morally acceptable (as are both options here) there really is nothing to debate over and risk people getting hurt.

I’m really not trying to make you mad, it’s just something you notice over the many years of being here. Even with almost totally different posters, it always winds up the same.

 

[LongingSoul]

Oooooooh NO!!! Not another “family size” thread…:banghead:

They need to make this a banned topic as it never EVER turns out pretty and most times winds up locked while heated tempers and hurt feelings abound.

There are some basic facts that always should be considered here. First, when the issue has been raised with the Magisterium, she always defers to the free will of a couple in deciding their family makeup. Specifically saying they should not be disturbed or disquieted in that regard by outside opinions.

Secondly, populations are influenced by nature and the natural survivalist instinct in living things and so you see different periods of natural population boom and thrift according to the the capacity to sustain species into the future. So human instincts have to be respected in this matter. Ideological breeding goes against divine and natural law.

The Church over time has demonstrated that faulty motivation by examples of selfishness in both limiting family size and reproducing without any sense of responsibility at all as a ‘catholic ideal’.

What it comes down to is that no individual family can possibly be judged based on the number of children they have. The merits of anyone’s life will be partially evident in time and only fully evident to God Himself.

 

[jmjZelie]

We’ve lived next to our neighbors for, oh, 15 years. We tried reaching out, but what happens when you are rejected? I swear that our neighbors have silos built around their properties. Heck, we caught grief from both neighbors because we accidentally mowed part of their yard (and they didn’t like the height we kept our grass). Their kids were out of the house and they didn’t want to be bothered with a young family. Then I caught heck when a couple times my kid ran after butterflies into their yard and stepped on their flowers. He was about 4. He was fast and I was chasing him and trying to teach him to stay in our yard. We really couldn’t win.

It sounds like my BIL/SIL may be the military exception, not the rule.

Our old neighborhood was just the same as you describe. It was awful to know our neighbors hated us, or barely spoke to us. Some of them never spoke to us in the seven years we lived there, others expressed sadness that we moved back after being gone for a few months when they thought that they had finally gotten rid of us.

They hated the noise of our children and the fact that our lawn was not immaculate and the fact that we had boundaries and would not just let their learning disabled daughter come and go in our house as she pleased. (Speaking of several neighbors at once here)

I am so glad we left that town thousands of miles away. Especially since we just got invited to come visit with one of our new neighbors just now. It is like a breath of fresh air to have good neighbors. Some neighborhoods just stink.

 

[jmjZelie]

It’s to prevent unecessary arguing, fighting and hurt feelings. If both sides of an issue are morally acceptable (as are both options here) there really is nothing to debate over and risk people getting hurt.

I’m really not trying to make you mad, it’s just something you notice over the many years of being here. Even with almost totally different posters, it always winds up the same.

I am not mad.

I just disagree with censoring a topic such as family planning in the Family Life forum.

Furthermore, this thread is not about family size. It is about a speech by Pope Francis about not purposefully excluding children in favor of luxury, and not isolating oneself, and about persevering in the struggles of family life. Those are all good exhortations.

 

[bitterhope]

I don’t know why family size is repeatedly brought up by posters when it has nothing to do with the discussion. It’s really getting old. Every other thread is turned into a family size or NFP debate. It’s getting frustrating

 

[edwest2]

And then there is the healthcare crisis!

Could you be more specific?

Ed

 

[bitterhope]

I thought I would be seen as self-absorbed for not having a bigger family and by choosing to make sure my son’s financial welfare is secure given the fact he has a disability and has no family that will be around when he is older to help him in life. I felt it was our duty to make sure he is not dependent on an already taxed system of social services.

I understand what you are saying but I don’t think you should feel that way at all. It has nothing to do with the size if a family it’s how they live their lives. Their values and intentions matter greatly, not the number of members. There are many reasons people have small families. There are many reasons people have large families. The important part is how we as parents raise our children if we are blessed with any. If a couple has no living children they can live out the virtues in many other ways. That is his we prevent ourselves from becoming isolated from God

 

[Xantippe]

Yes. I hear you. I thought I had noticed a tinge of loneliness in your posts lately. It seemed out of character. When I used to correspond here as mommamaree (my old account from years ago) you were more upbeat and positive. It sounds like we have been going through some parallel trials. It is hard. I am glad to hear you keep trying. I keep trying too. It is a lot like dating, but I actually struggle more with making deep friendships than I ever did in dating. But I refuse to give up on myself any more. My older toddler is 3 next week and between some maturing she has done in the past couple months and our success with potty training, I began to realize that her very challenging toddlerhood had led to me having some mental health issues. As we have more children in the future (if God wills it) my husband and I intend to be very proactive on those issues to keep our family life from collapsing in on itself again and leading to me feeling suffocated at home.

Ah! I was pretty sure that you were mommamaree! Welcome back! I take it you are far, far overseas?

There was a long stretch over the last 2+ years where I’d think things like, “I ought to schedule a playdate for Middle Kid like he’s always asking,” or “I ought to get Big Girl together with her friend that switched schools” or “We ought to have dinner with the Donaghys” or “We should ask the Kirks to come play board games” “We ought to go to the graduate potluck” or “I ought to try to go to the games night” or “I ought to join a mothers’ Meetup group” or “I ought to go to the departmental women’s reading group”–but I just didn’t have the surplus mental or emotional energy to arrange the stuff and follow through on anything but the most basic school, household functioning and childcare stuff.

You’re right that I do feel lonely and a little sad, but some good things have been happening:

–Baby Girl is in parents’ day out two days a week now, so I am generally caught up on my email, home clerical stuff, home chores, and have more thinking and planning time.
–Baby Girl is getting easier to deal with and has a lot of interest in coloring and snipping stuff up with scissors, but she is resolutely un-potty-trained.
–I joined two meetups, including one Catholic moms one (I haven’t gone to any of their events yet, but I’ve been to three events for the other group, plus scheduling another event of my own
–I suddenly realized that there’s a family at school with a nice mom and a child in each grade for ours–including a 3-year-old girl that will be in our youngest girl’s class. (VERY EXCITING.) It’s kind of mind-blowing that I only figured that out about a week ago, but that’s how far out of it I’ve been.
–It looks like my good friend is going to try to put a child into our school, so that would be yet another classmate that I know for Baby Girl.
–We went to dinner at my husband’s grad student’s house that hosts the game night that my husband and big kids go to. They have a 4-year-old and a 1-year-old.
–We have a standing dinner date at the cafeteria with another family
–We have been having more impromptu cafeteria dinners with a second family

That’s actually a lot of stuff, but there’s a sort of hangover sadness

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I think reading the entire article would be of benefit. The isolation the Holy Father is referring to is the self imposed isolation of those that shut out family, shut out the church for secular reasons. Being isolated due to circumstance such as distance or lack of family aren’t really things one can control.

 

[Xantippe]

I think reading the entire article would be of benefit. The isolation the Holy Father is referring to is the self imposed isolation of those that shut out family, shut out the church for secular reasons. Being isolated due to circumstance such as distance or lack of family aren’t really things one can control.

I read it.

I am not so sure that that’s how social isolation works these days. If anything, a couple of childless DINKs might have a much better social life than, say, a mother of special needs children.

 

[jmjZelie]

Ah! I was pretty sure that you were mommamaree! Welcome back! I take it you are far, far overseas?

There was a long stretch over the last 2+ years where I’d think things like, “I ought to schedule a playdate for Middle Kid like he’s always asking,” or “I ought to get Big Girl together with her friend that switched schools” or “We ought to have dinner with the Donaghys” or “We should ask the Kirks to come play board games” “We ought to go to the graduate potluck” or “I ought to try to go to the games night” or “I ought to join a mothers’ Meetup group” or “I ought to go to the departmental women’s reading group”–but I just didn’t have the surplus mental or emotional energy to arrange the stuff and follow through on anything but the most basic school, household functioning and childcare stuff.

You’re right that I do feel lonely and a little sad, but some good things have been happening:

–Baby Girl is in parents’ day out two days a week now, so I am generally caught up on my email, home clerical stuff, home chores, and have more thinking and planning time.
–Baby Girl is getting easier to deal with and has a lot of interest in coloring and snipping stuff up with scissors, but she is resolutely un-potty-trained.
–I joined two meetups, including one Catholic moms one (I haven’t gone to any of their events yet, but I’ve been to three events for the other group, plus scheduling another event of my own
–I suddenly realized that there’s a family at school with a nice mom and a child in each grade for ours–including a 3-year-old girl that will be in our youngest girl’s class. (VERY EXCITING.) It’s kind of mind-blowing that I only figured that out about a week ago, but that’s how far out of it I’ve been.
–It looks like my good friend is going to try to put a child into our school, so that would be yet another classmate that I know for Baby Girl.
–We went to dinner at my husband’s grad student’s house that hosts the game night that my husband and big kids go to. They have a 4-year-old and a 1-year-old.
–We have a standing dinner date at the cafeteria with another family
–We have been having more impromptu cafeteria dinners with a second family

That’s actually a lot of stuff, but there’s a sort of hangover sadness

All very good!

Sometimes, we can be doing every thing we can, but it is still very hard and emotionally-draining. I took a year off of forums, maybe longer, and only came back after we moved, mostly due to the loneliness. We moved to SoCal, though we had initially looked at China. But with all my family back in the eastern half of the Midwest and all my friends back in South Carolina, we might as well be off the map as far as that goes.
Things are gong much better now, as you can probably gather from how my posting changed over the last eight months or so.

I started a new account because I forgot my old password and my emails are different from when I first started that account. I had mentioned it when I first rejoined, I think. But I remember you and I were pregnant at the same time that go around. Obviously, in the time I was gone, I had my youngest, too. All three of my youngest girls have made staying connected to others very challenging, if not darn near impossible. Especially my now 5yo and 3yo, who are both runners and screamers. Thankfully SoCal is a much more forgiving environment than our old town.

I still feel like I am not doing enough, but then I realize how many good things we are doing. There is an opportunity cost for every decision and it helps me to keep that in mind when I start to feel like I am not working hard enough at building that social support system.

Anyway, I really appreciate what Pope Francis said it his speech to the families. Especially about it is okay to have tired faces and to be struggling with woundedness. We can’t always project a feeling of happiness to the world and it would be disingenuous to pretend that we are always happy happy happy when things get hard.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I read it.

I am not so sure that that’s how social isolation works these days. If anything, a couple of childless DINKs might have a much better social life than, say, a mother of special needs children.

I’m not sure what a DINK is.

My social life lately has been here, and daily talks with my sister and also my appointments with my psychologist.

It isn’t for secular motives. I’ve got a bit of PTS I’m going through.

Maybe a good example of a bad example, is any of the characters from Mad Men. Betty Draper had a whole bunch of nice things, but a terrible marriage and a terrible relationship with her kids. (I’m only at the end of season 3)