Pope Francis: better for families to be tired, struggling than isolated, seeking luxury [CWN]

[edwest2]

I’m not sure what a DINK is.

My social life lately has been here, and daily talks with my sister and also my appointments with my psychologist.

It isn’t for secular motives. I’ve got a bit of PTS I’m going through.

Maybe a good example of a bad example, is any of the characters from Mad Men. Betty Draper had a whole bunch of nice things, but a terrible marriage and a terrible relationship with her kids. (I’m only at the end of season 3)

DINK - Double Income No Kids

• Brought to you by the Global Cabal of Relabelers and Repackagers of Reality. A bad thing.

Ed

Mad Men is pure, unadulterated junk. And it’s not history aside from the props.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m not sure what a DINK is.

My social life lately has been here, and daily talks with my sister and also my appointments with my psychologist.

It isn’t for secular motives. I’ve got a bit of PTS I’m going through.

Yeah–I feel pretty strongly that it is being tired and struggling that leads to being isolated.

People that are tired and struggling don’t have the sort of emotional surplus that you need to forge bonds with other people.

 

[1990Domer]

Could you be more specific?

Ed

I have talked with people afraid to have more than 1 or 2 children because, in the case of a job loss, healthcare is mandatory and expensive per the ACA. I feel it is having more of an impact than first thought.

 

[bitterhope]

I have talked with people afraid to have more than 1 or 2 children because, in the case of a job loss, healthcare is mandatory and expensive per the ACA. I feel it is having more of an impact than first thought.

If a parent is looking for health insurance that meets the requirements of Obamacare they can join Samaritan Health or another similar health care sharing group. They cover for an extremely small amount and there’s no additional charges for more children. There us also the option of children’s health insurance coverage (CHIP) through the state if they qualify. You could mention those things to them and see if it eases their minds a little. There are always options if we are willing to look for them.

 

[Xantippe]

If a parent is looking for health insurance that meets the requirements of Obamacare they can join Samaritan Health or another similar health care sharing group. They cover for an extremely small amount and there’s no additional charges for more children. There us also the option of children’s health insurance coverage (CHIP) through the state if they qualify. You could mention those things to them and see if it eases their minds a little. There are always options if we are willing to look for them.

I was googling Samaritan and similar organizations, and I would suggest doing a lot of research before signing up. I see the following issues:

–having to pay upfront and wait to be reimbursed for large amounts
–families that have babies at regular intervals will find the maternity program a big pain in the neck
–the $400 or so a month per family they charge cannot possibly cover the expenses of a largish family–so I feel that in the long run, the organization is financially unsound
–unpredictability as to whether the organization will have the money to reimburse
–fine print is very unlike that of normal health insurance–hence, at least one of these has a per event cap of $125k for their normal policy–not a lot in the world of large medical events. You have to do a different deluxe option to get real catastrophic coverage.
–you have to continually negotiate with providers

Here’s a clear account:

baylyblog.com/blog/2016/01/revisiting-samaritan-ministries?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=tbayly

 

[bitterhope]

I was googling Samaritan and similar organizations, and I would suggest doing a lot of research before signing up. I see the following issues:

–having to pay upfront and wait to be reimbursed for large amounts
–families that have babies at regular intervals will find the maternity program a big pain in the neck
–the $400 or so a month per family they charge cannot possibly cover the expenses of a largish family–so I feel that in the long run, the organization is financially unsound
–unpredictability as to whether the organization will have the money to reimburse
–fine print is very unlike that of normal health insurance–hence, at least one of these has a per event cap of $125k for their normal policy–not a lot in the world of large medical events. You have to do a different deluxe option to get real catastrophic coverage.
–you have to continually negotiate with providers

Here’s a clear account:

baylyblog.com/blog/2016/01/revisiting-samaritan-ministries?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=tbayly

She was speaking about job loss. It is something that could ease minds as gap coverage incase they don’t qualify for CHIP. I didn’t suggest long term coverage. But this is all way off topic

 

[Xantippe]

She was speaking about job loss. It is something that could ease minds as gap coverage incase they don’t qualify for CHIP. I didn’t suggest long term coverage. But this is all way off topic

I think it would be really revolting to pay $400 a month and then discover that it wasn’t covering what you thought it was going to cover or anything really bad (which is the point of insurance to begin with–cushioning against major events).

I think it is actually relevant. There’s a temptation (when people do stuff we don’t agree with) to assume that they have no reason for it, but when enough people are doing the same thing, I think at some point, you have to stop and look a bit and figure out, why do people do stuff a certain way?

In the case of the main discussion, the question is, why do people marry late, have kids late, and prefer to have small families? I think it’s worthwhile to look at the realities that young people are operating inside of: high debt, uncertain employment, high medical costs, little family help, high mobility, little community support, probable loss of current friendships and support, etc. In that context, late marriage, late parenthood and small families are very understandable.

If we want young people to make different choices about age at marriage, age at parenthood, and family size, perhaps we should work harder to improve the context where they are making choices rather than just throwing rocks and telling them to work harder.

 

[bitterhope]

I think it would be really revolting to pay $400 a month and then discover that it wasn’t covering what you thought it was going to cover or anything really bad (which is the point of insurance to begin with–cushioning against major events).

I think it is actually relevant. There’s a temptation (when people do stuff we don’t agree with) to assume that they have no reason for it, but when enough people are doing the same thing, I think at some point, you have to stop and look a bit and figure out, why do people do stuff a certain way?

In the case of the main discussion, the question is, why do people marry late, have kids late, and prefer to have small families? I think it’s worthwhile to look at the realities that young people are operating inside of: high debt, uncertain employment, high medical costs, little family help, high mobility, little community support, probable loss of current friendships and support, etc. In that context, late marriage, late parenthood and small families are very understandable.

If we want young people to make different choices about age at marriage, age at parenthood, and family size, perhaps we should work harder to improve the context where they are making choices rather than just throwing rocks and telling them to work harder.

First off, it’s not insurance. They clearly state on their website Samaritan is NOT insurance. It is a cost sharing group but it does qualify as coverage for ACA.

Also, nothing the Pope stated has anything at all to do with age at marriage or family size. Why do you continuously bring that into threads?

Yes, this is off topic.

 

[Xantippe]

**First off, it’s not insurance. They clearly state on their website Samaritan is NOT insurance. It is a cost sharing group but it does qualify as coverage for ACA. **

**Also, nothing the Pope stated has anything at all to do with age at marriage or family size. **Why do you continuously bring that into threads?

Yes, this is off topic.

1. A lot of unwary people won’t understand the consequences of going with Samaritan, so it’s worth mentioning what the differences are. $400 a month is a lot to pay for what they offer–which is a whole lot of uncertainty.
2. Actually, the Holy Father was talking about family size–specifically about young couples who aren’t having children.

 

[bitterhope]

1. A lot of unwary people won’t understand the consequences of going with Samaritan, so it’s worth mentioning what the differences are. $400 a month is a lot to pay for what they offer–which is a whole lot of uncertainty.
2. Actually, the Holy Father was talking about family size–specifically about young couples who aren’t having children.

You are missing the point. Both the point I was making and the point Pope Francis was making.

My point is there are always options to be found as long as you are willing to look. If one doesn’t suit you, keep looking or asking for something else. Arguing, nitpicking, complaining, making excuses for why it can’t be changed, expecting things to go your way without your efforts, etc. are only going to keep you stagnate.

Pope Francis’ point is to let go of the worldly ways that isolate you from God. Mend relationships you allowed to be destroyed in your pursuit of material comforts. Stop allowing the world to dictate your family lifestyle and look to God instead.

 

[Sarcelle]

You are missing the point. Both the point I was making and the point Pope Francis was making.

My point is there are always options to be found as long as you are willing to look. If one doesn’t suit you, keep looking or asking for something else. Arguing, nitpicking, complaining, making excuses for why it can’t be changed, expecting things to go your way without your efforts, etc. are only going to keep you stagnate.

Pope Francis’ point is to let go of the worldly ways that isolate you from God. Mend relationships you allowed to be destroyed in your pursuit of material comforts. Stop allowing the world to dictate your family lifestyle and look to God instead.

What if your relationships have been destroyed by your decision to become a more faithful Catholic and your family is not happy with that decision? What if you get invited to a same sex wedding and you have to decline? The result is your family member not speaking to you. This leaves you alone. That is bad enough but try going to mass and people give you a wide berth and prejudge you for being a loser for coming to mass alone. Following God does demand sacrifice which I am more than willing to make but it can lead to social isolation.

 

[Xantippe]

What if your relationships have been destroyed by your decision to become a more faithful Catholic and your family is not happy with that decision? What if you get invited to a same sex wedding and you have to decline? The result is your family member not speaking to you. This leaves you alone. That is bad enough but try going to mass and people give you a wide berth and prejudge you for being a loser for coming to mass alone. Following God does demand sacrifice which I am more than willing to make but it can lead to social isolation.

Those are very interesting points.

It’s true that we see many threads from people who feel lonely within their parish communities for one reason or another–being single, not having children, not being a member of the parish clique, etc.

Also, it seems to be the case that one can become socially isolated just by having a family the “wrong” size–no children, “too many” children, children the wrong age, etc, and also through being a special needs parent with a child that looks or behaves oddly.

 

[bitterhope]

What if your relationships have been destroyed by your decision to become a more faithful Catholic and your family is not happy with that decision? What if you get invited to a same sex wedding and you have to decline? The result is your family member not speaking to you. This leaves you alone. That is bad enough but try going to mass and people give you a wide berth and prejudge you for being a loser for coming to mass alone. Following God does demand sacrifice which I am more than willing to make but it can lead to social isolation.

Yes it can. It does happen and Jesus told us it would. You are not isolating yourself from God. You are not isolating yourself from your family even if they choose that themselves. If you remain open to reunion then you have done all you really can. Social isolation is hard and causes struggles but isolation from God is so much worse. It’s very possible to find your way out of being alone socially if you make attempts to do so. It might be that you need to step out of your comfort zone for a while and search for it, but there are always resources. Those of us that move often have found that similar resources exist everywhere. You have to make the attempt yourself though. I just left a really bad parish. I stayed longer than I should have because I didn’t want to drive an extra 30 minutes to Mass. Our old parish was 35 mins away already. But that 65 min drive is well worth it. There were options but I wasn’t willing to put in the effort myself to change things. I can’t blame anyone else. There are always options and there is always hope unless we choose to give either of those things up.

 

[jmjZelie]

*Emphasizing the love of God the Father throughout history, Pope Francis described the kingdom of God as “a kingdom which has the feeling of family, the flavor of a life shared.”

“Today we see how on different fronts the family is weakened and questioned,” the Pope said. “It is regarded as a model which has done its time, but which has no place in our societies; these, claiming to be modern, increasingly favor a model based on isolation.”

He continued:

Societies become increasingly inoculated – they refer to themselves as societies which are free, democratic, sovereign – but they are inoculated by ideological colonizations which destroy; and we end up being ideological colonies that then have a destructive effect on families, the family cell, which is the basis of every healthy society.

It is true that living in family is not always easy, and can often be painful and stressful but, as I have often said referring to the Church, I prefer a wounded family that makes daily efforts to put love into play, to a family and society that is sick from isolationism or a habitual fear of love. I prefer a family that makes repeated efforts to begin again, to a family and society that is narcissistic and obsessed with luxury and comfort.

How many children do you have? “No, we don’t have children as we like to go on holidays, be tourists, and I want to buy a villa.” Luxury and comfort without children, and yet, when you then want a child, it’s too late. This is so harmful, is it not? I prefer a family with tired faces from generous giving, to a family with faces full of makeup that know nothing of tenderness and compassion.*

Here is the text of his speech to families. He is talking about the evils of societal models based on isolation, and purposefully avoiding having any children for the sake of luxury. These are real things in the world today.

Couples are choosing to marry but remain child free, through contraception, sterilization and abortion. Note the moniker “child free”, not “childless”. They are redefining marriage as a pursuit of pleasure. I have read about this growing trend. It is happening all over the world.

And things such as “bedroom communities”, where the neighborhoods are totally empty during the day, and the entire household leaves to go to long work hours and school and after-school care and extracurriculars, coming home just in time to sleep and shower. This is a real thing, too. Ironically, these homes are often huge. But people get into their car in their garage and drive to work and drive from place to place and drive home straight into their garage, and they never see or speak to a neighbor or a friend. Neighbors live side by side for decades and never see each other’s faces.

Everyone will experience loneliness and feeling like outsiders now and then. Every family will struggle with the question of family planning and family size, at least for a little bit of time. These are not the models of isolation and the exclusion of children in pursuit of luxury.

I know Pope Framcis often says things that can be upsetting to lots of people, because he tends to speak more about lifestyle than about dogma, but in my opinion, this is one statement of his that we can feel encouraged by. If you are feeling tired and stretched and giving until it hurts sometimes and seeking out friendships with others, mutually supportive ones, then he is speaking to you. He wants to see your tired faces, your self-sacrificing hearts, because those are far more beautiful than the most rested, beautifully made-up face of a person that serves only themselves.

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes it can. It does happen and Jesus told us it would. You are not isolating yourself from God. You are not isolating yourself from your family even if they choose that themselves. If you remain open to reunion then you have done all you really can. Social isolation is hard and causes struggles but isolation from God is so much worse. It’s very possible to find your way out of being alone socially if you make attempts to do so. It might be that you need to step out of your comfort zone for a while and search for it, but there are always resources. Those of us that move often have found that similar resources exist everywhere. You have to make the attempt yourself though. I just left a really bad parish. I stayed longer than I should have because I didn’t want to drive an extra 30 minutes to Mass. Our old parish was 35 mins away already. But that 65 min drive is well worth it. There were options but I wasn’t willing to put in the effort myself to change things. I can’t blame anyone else. There are always options and there is always hope unless we choose to give either of those things up.

I have taken steps to reach out to people and I am no longer as isolated as I once was. I’m pretty outgoing anyway. However, I would just like to point out that not all social isolation comes from selfishly pursuing materialistic goals but sometimes can be a result of taking an unpopular position. In this society it is pretty much a guarantee that Christian doctrines are not welcome in so called wider society.

 

[bitterhope]

I have taken steps to reach out to people and I am no longer as isolated as I once was. I’m pretty outgoing anyway. However, I would just like to point out that not all social isolation comes from selfishly pursuing materialistic goals but sometimes can be a result of taking an unpopular position. In this society it is pretty much a guarantee that Christian doctrines are not welcome in so called wider society.

You are right. Not everything is within our control. All we can do is stay close to the Lord and trust He has our best interests in mind. We can and should take steps to remedy situations. Not doing anything or simply making a plan without action or talking but not moving will get us no where at all. I am a very shy person. Growing up in a huge family made it easy to avoid attention because I could deflect it to other people if I needed or wanted to. I had to force myself to get out of my comfort zone to advocate for my sons (drs don’t always like to listen to moms) and to be the first to start a conversation in order to make friends and meet people. My mom has a hard time believing I can talk to strangers in a grocery store because at one point in my life I went almost two years with only speaking to family and still only if necessary. I’m not naturally outgoing. But when life puts you in uncomfortable situations there aren’t many options. You can work on changing yourself or you can stay isolated, miserable, lonely and stuck. As a daughter, sister, wife, and mother I couldn’t do that to my parents, siblings, husband, and kids. There comes a point when unhappiness and self pity become selfish. There’s no other option than working on yourself. I can’t change other people and often life situations are out of my control as well. Happiness, peace and spiritual joy are internal. We are never truly isolated if we take steps to foster our relationship with God. The saints and angels are sometimes the only friends we feel we have. With their love and support we can have hope that the hardship in life can and will in time no longer concern us. When life gets hard we can find hope in the struggles knowing they unit us with Christ. It truly is beautiful.

 

[LongingSoul]

I have taken steps to reach out to people and I am no longer as isolated as I once was. I’m pretty outgoing anyway. However, I would just like to point out that not all social isolation comes from selfishly pursuing materialistic goals but sometimes can be a result of taking an unpopular position. In this society it is pretty much a guarantee that Christian doctrines are not welcome in so called wider society.

These types of people are more like the victims of an isolationist ideology perhaps, rather than perpetrators of the ideology. The general description of it is…

Isolationism is a category of foreign policies institutionalized by leaders who asserted that their nations’ best interests were best served by keeping the affairs of other countries at a distance.

There’s an article in the Financial Times this week regarding American isolationism here…
ft.com/cms/s/0/c598ba32-d1a1-11e5-92a1-c5e23ef99c77.html#axzz40SDVATLd

It describes an attitude of choosing to isolate oneself from the family oriented basis of society and sink your time and energy into being comfortable and wealthy. Children of course force you to participate in that common family basis because you need to educate and socialise them as part of a parents duties. Having children is the antithesis of this road.

Sure people can have children and keep at their goal of comfort and wealth but they’re more likely to need to dump those children in full time daycare to be raised essentially by others while they put on their face of makeup daily and continue to strive for their main goal. So not the mothers struggling with loneliness with their children the forefront of their everyday.

The thread was taken in the direction of a strawman from the start and it meant that the lonely and isolated were being accused of this isolationist agenda… but that is definitely not what Pope Francis meant by the accusation.

 

[Xantippe]

*Emphasizing the love of God the Father throughout history, Pope Francis described the kingdom of God as “a kingdom which has the feeling of family, the flavor of a life shared.”

“Today we see how on different fronts the family is weakened and questioned,” the Pope said. “It is regarded as a model which has done its time, but which has no place in our societies; these, claiming to be modern, increasingly favor a model based on isolation.”

He continued:

Societies become increasingly inoculated – they refer to themselves as societies which are free, democratic, sovereign – but they are inoculated by ideological colonizations which destroy; and we end up being ideological colonies that then have a destructive effect on families, the family cell, which is the basis of every healthy society.

It is true that living in family is not always easy, and can often be painful and stressful but, as I have often said referring to the Church, I prefer a wounded family that makes daily efforts to put love into play, to a family and society that is sick from isolationism or a habitual fear of love. I prefer a family that makes repeated efforts to begin again, to a family and society that is narcissistic and obsessed with luxury and comfort.

How many children do you have? “No, we don’t have children as we like to go on holidays, be tourists, and I want to buy a villa.” Luxury and comfort without children, and yet, when you then want a child, it’s too late. This is so harmful, is it not? I prefer a family with tired faces from generous giving, to a family with faces full of makeup that know nothing of tenderness and compassion.*

Here is the text of his speech to families. He is talking about the evils of societal models based on isolation, and purposefully avoiding having any children for the sake of luxury. These are real things in the world today.

Couples are choosing to marry but remain child free, through contraception, sterilization and abortion. Note the moniker “child free”, not “childless”. They are redefining marriage as a pursuit of pleasure. I have read about this growing trend. It is happening all over the world.

And things such as “bedroom communities”, where the neighborhoods are totally empty during the day, and the entire household leaves to go to long work hours and school and after-school care and extracurriculars, coming home just in time to sleep and shower. This is a real thing, too. Ironically, these homes are often huge. But people get into their car in their garage and drive to work and drive from place to place and drive home straight into their garage, and they never see or speak to a neighbor or a friend. Neighbors live side by side for decades and never see each other’s faces.

Everyone will experience loneliness and feeling like outsiders now and then. Every family will struggle with the question of family planning and family size, at least for a little bit of time. These are not the models of isolation and the exclusion of children in pursuit of luxury.

I know Pope Framcis often says things that can be upsetting to lots of people, because he tends to speak more about lifestyle than about dogma, but in my opinion, this is one statement of his that we can feel encouraged by. If you are feeling tired and stretched and giving until it hurts sometimes and seeking out friendships with others, mutually supportive ones, then he is speaking to you. He wants to see your tired faces, your self-sacrificing hearts, because those are far more beautiful than the most rested, beautifully made-up face of a person that serves only themselves.

1. I actually question the idea that intentionally childless marriage is that common (at least in the US). My intuition on this is that in the US middle class, marriage and childbearing are very closely connected to this day–hence one often sees couples marrying late but immediately trying for children. (This isn’t a US case, but take for example Prince William and Catherine Middleton–they took their sweet time getting married, but once they were married, they had closely spaced children almost immediately.)
2. I usually don’t wear makeup. That doesn’t mean that I am particularly tender or compassionate. In fact, one could easily find ladies who wear more makeup than me but are more tender and compassionate.
3. About those bedroom communities–the people go somewhere. For instance, they are at work, and aren’t isolated from other people. They go to school and aren’t isolated from other people. They take their kids to sports and activities and aren’t isolated from other people. They go to school events and aren’t isolated, etc.

I think one ought to look away from where people aren’t, and consider where people are, and what they are doing there. And if one wants to be with other people, perhaps one should spend less time at home and more in those places where the other people are.

There’s also the question–are people really isolating themselves if they do spend so much time with other people?

1. About the bolded last paragraph–I actually find his speech depressing as heck, because he seems to be promising that if you do things the “right” way by having children and struggling, you won’t be isolated, which does not seem to be the case at all.

 

[jmjZelie]

1. I actually question the idea that intentionally childless marriage is that common (at least in the US). My intuition on this is that in the US middle class, marriage and childbearing are very closely connected to this day–hence one often sees couples marrying late but immediately trying for children. (This isn’t a US case, but take for example Prince William and Catherine Middleton–they took their sweet time getting married, but once they were married, they had closely spaced children almost immediately.)
2. I usually don’t wear makeup. That doesn’t mean that I am particularly tender or compassionate. In fact, one could easily find ladies who wear more makeup than me but are more tender and compassionate.
3. About those bedroom communities–the people go somewhere. For instance, they are at work, and aren’t isolated from other people. They go to school and aren’t isolated from other people. They take their kids to sports and activities and aren’t isolated from other people. They go to school events and aren’t isolated, etc.

I think one ought to look away from where people aren’t, and consider where people are, and what they are doing there. And if one wants to be with other people, perhaps one should spend less time at home and more in those places where the other people are.

There’s also the question–are people really isolating themselves if they do spend so much time with other people?

1. About the bolded last paragraph–I actually find his speech depressing as heck, because he seems to be promising that if you do things the “right” way by having children and struggling, you won’t be isolated, which does not seem to be the case at all.

I think your response is reasonable, even though I found myself encouraged by this particular speech while you feel the opposite. I am sad that you feel that way. I don’t want you to feel discouraged.

However, I think this is a good example of how polarizing Pope Francis’ speeches are. About a year and a half ago, I remember the hoopla over his speech where he spoke about not needing to be like rabbits. That speech hurt me and many other parents of large families and has been used against us again and again. Even a recent blockbuster movie used his words about not being like Catholic rabbits as a slur against large Catholic families. Many people objected and asked for the Pope to not use slurs against his own flock anymore. Yet those of us who were saddened by his words, were told that we were in the wrong and that we had bad attitudes and that we were holier-than-thou breeders.

Pope Francis is a polarizing figure, for better or for worse. His speeches cut people to the heart, for good or for bad. I think Catholics are going to have to get used to feeling scolded by this pope. Who knows, maybe us feeling scolded in turns will help us to wake up to the fact that everyone is different and has different crosses and teach us to look outside our own viewpoint and strive to connect with each other in a deeper way.

 

[Sarcelle]

I think your response is reasonable, even though I found myself encouraged by this particular speech while you feel the opposite. I am sad that you feel that way. I don’t want you to feel discouraged.

However, I think this is a good example of how polarizing Pope Francis’ speeches are. About a year and a half ago, I remember the hoopla over his speech where he spoke about not needing to be like rabbits. That speech hurt me and many other parents of large families and has been used against us again and again. Even a recent blockbuster movie used his words about not being like Catholic rabbits as a slur against large Catholic families. Many people objected and asked for the Pope to not use slurs against his own flock anymore. Yet those of us who were saddened by his words, were told that we were in the wrong and that we had bad attitudes and that we were holier-than-thou breeders.

Pope Francis is a polarizing figure, for better or for worse. His speeches cut people to the heart, for good or for bad. I think Catholics are going to have to get used to feeling scolded by this pope. Who knows, maybe us feeling scolded in turns will help us to wake up to the fact that everyone is different and has different crosses and teach us to look outside our own viewpoint and strive to connect with each other in a deeper way.

I have come to the point where I just ignore news articles about what the Pope has purportedly said and just go read the entire speech. Usually his speeches are a lot more reasonable than what the media portray it to be.