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Santi2
Guest
Ooops! Deleting mine to give way to Andy’s post on the homily. 
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JReducation
Guest
He certainly does. He’s an excellent preacher.
I particularly noted
**
And a Christian who constantly complains, fails to be a good Christian: they become Mr. or Mrs. Whiner, no? Because they always complain about everything, right? Silence in endurance, silence in patience. That silence of Jesus: Jesus in His Passion did not speak much, only two or three necessary words … But it is not a sad silence: the silence of bearing the Cross is not a sad silence. **
It made me think of this forum as soon as I read it.
“I was sooooo scandalized at mass,” (I have never been scandalized at mass, because I never notice what’s going on around me)
or “I went to church before mass and I couldn’t pray, because someone behind me was talking,” (I have had the same experience. That’s why I pray at home, when the church is empty or at the grotto outside of church. What matters to me is to pray, not where I pray.)
or “The women in church were showing cleavage,” (Why were you staring? I’m very old. I stopped noticing cleavage when I got past adolescence.)
If I had $1.00 for each time I hear people whine about something that they can easily manage with a little creativity and patience, I could end world hunger.
I think this is what the Holy Father is talking about. Stop complaining and do something different.
It reminds me of a story about Teresa of Avila. The Inquisition accused her of causing scandal, because she and her nuns did not cover their heads properly to receive Holy Communion. That in itself is laughable, because they wore a coif and an underveil over the coif. They did not have money to buy fabric to cut out the long black veils that nuns usually wear in chapel.
Teresa looked at the Inquisitor and said, “If Your Reverence will excuse my simple mindedness and my plain speaking, Unless one was peaking over the cloister wall, the only person who would know this would be the priest who celebrated our mass. Maybe you should ask him what he was doing staring at a group of women when he should have been paying attention to the Sacred Mysteries.”
Her message was quite clear, whining leads to gossip and gossip is a sign of an undisciplined mind and roaming eyes.
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Lucky7
Guest
To be fair to the folks who are “complaining” on the forums, we do not know that any one person who complains about a particular thing is “always complaining about everything” which is what I think you bolded in the Pope’s remarks.
I also remember one time when I went to confession years ago. The priest instructed me that I should keep in mind that there is a difference between whining and complaining. To complain about something that is unjust, for example, is not the same thing as whining. That has stuck with me and when I examine my conscience I try to distinguish between the two.
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Sirach2
Guest
In working one of my puzzle books yesterday, I was edified by this quotagram:
Silence is one of the hardest things to refute.
Jean Anthony has put a moratorium on all complaint threads in L&S, and a poster commented the other day how pleasant it is to visit that section now.
It must be agonizing for mods to read post after post from negative whiners. Members get to pick and choose, thankfully, but it can be disheartening for the times they run into it also.
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Sirach2
Guest
:ehh: Really? I came across one of these posters yesterday. A simple review of their posting history reveals an unmistakable pattern. If they did not find acceptance previously, what makes them think that this time will finally gain them an audience, or whether it will truly solve his problem to voice it yet again?
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Lucky7
Guest
I’m not sure why anyone finds it necessary to check a person’s posting history other than a moderator. Perhaps a particular poster has a certain topic they are passionate about. It still does not give anyone full knowledge of how they are in general (ie. outside of the forums, in “everything”).
I would also argue that there are a handful of posters who complain about others complaining.
And you and I were supposed to block each others posts…
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Sirach2
Guest
Why check? If there is a history of complaints, it does no good to reply since they will assuredly not pay any attention. It saves a lot of grief that way. Silence is golden.
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JReducation
Guest
I think that your confessor probably means what I said above.
Stop complaining and do something different.
If one does nothing different, but just repeats the complaint like a broken record, there is no benefit to anyone.
We have a very interesting statute in the constitutions of my community. The brothers may only present their complaint to someone who can do something about it.
This has actually helped to keep us all sane. Because it’s very easy to sit around a colloquy and say things like:
“The bishop did or did not do X . . . isn’t that awful.”
"The pastor never or always . . . . "
"The pope failed to . . . "
"That brother is guilty of . . . "
The question came up as we were writing our constitutions, “Who benefits from such complaining?” The answer that we came to was, “No one. It only annoys everyone, gets people in a bad mood, spreads frustration, turns issues into gossip, pulls in people who have nothing to do with the issue, strips away our interior silence, and resolves nothing.”
The policy became that if one has a complaint, it must be presented to someone who can do something about it. To make sure that the brothers comply with the policy, the constitution made it a command under holy obedience. Anyone who knowingly violates a command under the vow of obedience commits a grave sin. Therefore, people think twice before opening their mouth. They limit themselves to complaining to those who have the power to change situations and solve problems. Sometimes, that can be the group. More often than not, the person who can solve a problem is the source of the problem himself or a person who has authority over him. When it comes to the pope, no one has authority over him, so it’s useless to complain. Shut up, bite the bullet and act like a Franciscan. That’s our policy.
There is nothing wrong with filing a complaint. This is a matter of justice. Everyone has the right to file a complaint.
The problem is when the complaint is voiced all over except with the person or persons who need to know about it. Then it’s whining, not complaining.
To complain comes from the Latin word, “queror”.
Queror has a legal connotation. It means to file a grievance.
When one is simply complaining, but failing to file a grievance, then one is whining, because he’s not doing anything different. He’s just subjecting himself to a situation and then looking for sympathy. That’s not healthy or virtuous.
We see a lot of this on the forums and probably in our families, workplace or community. My policy is quite simple. Don’t complain to me about something that is not my business. It’s only my business if I can do something about it. I once told a brother that if he had a complaint about something that the pope said he should write to the pope and not tell me about it, because the pope does not work for me, nor am I the brother’s therapist. He looked at me and chuckled. I think he got the idea.
This article just brought back some of those thoughts.
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Sirach2
Guest
Wow! This should be a stickie!
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Lormar
Guest
Sirach, I had almost the same reaction, but I thought the Brother’s post should be mandatory reading for every Catholic in the world.Another Brother Jay post that I have to save to my special “Brother Jay” file and read over and over and over and over until at least some of it sinks in.
You know how thick some of us dense folks can be.
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JReducation
Guest
Just pray for me and forget about quoting me. :yup:
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Lucky7
Guest
Of course we do. We also have a lot of posters complain about other posters complaining as if that is so much more virtuous.
I know that I have my main “complaints” that I voice on these forums and I know I am guilty of repeating them. Although I have no control over these concerns I do think it is important to air them with others. It is often comforting to know that others have the same concerns and that you’re not alone. Having said that, I will certainly consider your post Brother Jay as it doesn’t come off self-righteous or hypocritical.
As for complaining to someone who can actually do something about it, I do plan on writing Cardinal Dolan for one. I guess I’m not so sure my concerns will matter to him.
Edit: Oh…I think my other concern is the talk of complaining in everything. Just because people complain about certain things does not mean they are whiners in general.
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JReducation
Guest
You just reminded me of something that happened back in 1969 when I was a novice. I used to subscribe to this belief. One day, I expressed a concern at the dinner table about things that were happening in the Church. You have to put this in context.
Vatican II had just ended a few years before. Religious life was in transition. We were in the process of returning to the 13th century as we had been commanded to do. But that’s easier said than done. You have to go back there, retrieve the values and vision of those early friars and then apply them in the present. I was expressing concern about how this was not as easy as it sounded.
My novice master pulled me aside and told me that because I had upset the inner silence and tranquility of the brothers I had to perform an act of humility and charity for them. For a week I had to eat on my knees after kissing the feet of every brother in the refectory at every meal.
Try kneeling while eating out of your plate that’s on the floor during a 45 minute meal or crawling under tables kissing people’s feet, their actual bare feet, not their shoes. You’re kneeling in the center of the refectory with everyone looking at you. The tables are arranged in a horseshoe around the walls. There is no place to hide your shame and humiliation. ;sad_yes:
I learned to hold back on sharing concerns until I am asked or the situation is one where it would do some good. I still look over my shoulder.
I’m know that Pope Francis, being a religious as well, learned this hard lesson during his formative years in religious life. The Jesuits were even more stern in their punishments than Franciscans. They followed a military mentality. It wouldn’t surprise me if the superior shouted for them to give him 20 pushups for “sharing their concerns”. LOL
I think it helps to understand the inner mind of religious life to understand some of what the Holy Father says. Much of it comes right out of the manuals from novitiates. I recognize some of it.
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markomalley
Guest
Vatican Radio
Quote of the day:
Sometimes these melancholy Christians faces have more in common with pickled peppers than the joy of having a beautiful life.
I love the colorful illustrations he uses as part of his daily fervorini!
Quote of the day:
Sometimes these melancholy Christians faces have more in common with pickled peppers than the joy of having a beautiful life.
I love the colorful illustrations he uses as part of his daily fervorini!
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Lucky7
Guest
I understand and I will try to keep this in mind. Although I can see sharing concerns upsetting inner silence and tranquility of others, I also know that for some it does just the opposite. It helps those that are concerned realize they are not alone in their concerns. I know it helps me to hear from others.You just reminded me of something that happened back in 1969 when I was a novice. I used to subscribe to this belief. One day, I expressed a concern at the dinner table about things that were happening in the Church. You have to put this in context.
Vatican II had just ended a few years before. Religious life was in transition. We were in the process of returning to the 13th century as we had been commanded to do. But that’s easier said than done. You have to go back there, retrieve the values and vision of those early friars and then apply them in the present. I was expressing concern about how this was not as easy as it sounded.
My novice master pulled me aside and told me that because I had upset the inner silence and tranquility of the brothers I had to perform an act of humility and charity for them. For a week I had to eat on my knees after kissing the feet of every brother in the refectory at every meal.
Try kneeling while eating out of your plate that’s on the floor during a 45 minute meal or crawling under tables kissing people’s feet, their actual bare feet, not their shoes. You’re kneeling in the center of the refectory with everyone looking at you. The tables are arranged in a horseshoe around the walls. There is no place to hide your shame and humiliation. ;sad_yes:
I learned to hold back on sharing concerns until I am asked or the situation is one where it would do some good. I still look over my shoulder.
I’m know that Pope Francis, being a religious as well, learned this hard lesson during his formative years in religious life. The Jesuits were even more stern in their punishments than Franciscans. They followed a military mentality. It wouldn’t surprise me if the superior shouted for them to give him 20 pushups for “sharing their concerns”. LOL
I think it helps to understand the inner mind of religious life to understand some of what the Holy Father says. Much of it comes right out of the manuals from novitiates. I recognize some of it.
I also think that if it isn’t a real or valid concern then those that don’t share that concern would just ignore it, provide some help, or pray for those concerned, etc (and I know you do and I thank you for that). When I have been on the other side of concerns that I disagreed with (say issues with Church teachings) it doesn’t upset my inner silence or tranquility because I am on solid footing with that. I would argue that if anyone’s inner silence is upset by any concerns shared on here it might be because some of what is being shared actually concerns them too down deep inside.
I also don’t think that getting one’s inner silence/tranquility upset is always a bad thing. Sometimes it is, but sometimes when that happens for me it can mean I need to attend to something. If a number of folks have similar concerns maybe by voicing them to one another we can then do something about them (and yes, this is where we have to do something, not just say something). Then again, there are some things we can never change.
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Lormar
Guest
This is the reason why I think most blogs aren’t worth anything. Many of them are only breeders of discontent. They stir people up, and for what good? So we can stir others up? And what does that achieve? What can we actually do to remedy anything that we think is wrong with or in the Church today? We can pray, and that is about it. Show good example too, although I wonder if that does any good either on account of our Original Sin nature, as it has been my experience that most people follow bad examples a lot quicker than good.
Anyway, somehow I thought this fit in with what we are talking about.
Anyway, somehow I thought this fit in with what we are talking about.
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McCall1981
Guest
Here’s a link to Pope Francis’ Homily for today:
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/10/pope_at_mass:christian_joy_far_from_simple_fun/en1-690760
It’s a good one, deals with Christian Joy, and is somewhat related to the idea of having concerns and tranquility.
I have voiced concerns here and have received a lot of support from Br. JR, Lucky7 and many others which I am vert grateful for (thank you all
). I think voicing concerns and receiving support is part of Christian fellowship, as long as its done in a constructive way.
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/10/pope_at_mass:christian_joy_far_from_simple_fun/en1-690760
It’s a good one, deals with Christian Joy, and is somewhat related to the idea of having concerns and tranquility.
I have voiced concerns here and have received a lot of support from Br. JR, Lucky7 and many others which I am vert grateful for (thank you all
). I think voicing concerns and receiving support is part of Christian fellowship, as long as its done in a constructive way.
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AndyP2010
Guest
That one may be better than god–spray.
If nothing else, Pope Francis’ homilies are going to be studied in homiletics courses for sometime. It’s like Mark Twain became a priest.
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McCall1981
Guest
In his 2008 Mass for Educators homily, he mentions Frodo and Sam on their journey to Mount Doom. Not a turn of phrase, but I laughed out loud when I read it
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cocong2013
Guest
thanks for sharing…This thread is an off-shoot of the other Pope Francis thread and is intended to discuss his daily homilies. Here are some articles on past daily homilies for those interested:
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7499 (No room for self promoters, 4/22/13)
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7498 (Taking risks, 4/22/2013)
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7508 (Jesus not found outside the Church, 4/23/13)
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7515 (Final Judgement, 4/24/13)
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7518 (Church is a love story, 4/24/13)
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7524 (Church must evangelize humbly, 4/25/13)
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7532 (Journey of preparation, 4/26/13)
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/04/28/pope_francis:_remain_steadfast_in_the_journey_of_faith/en1-687179 (Journey of Faith, 4/28/13)
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7545 (Confession is not a dry cleaner, 4/29/13)
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/04/29/pope:_shame_is_a_true_christian_virtue/en1-687330 (Shame is a Christian virtue, 4/29/13)
en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/04/30/pope:_a_worldly_church_cannot_transmit_the_gospel/en1-687655 (Worldly Church, 4/30/13)
Also, here is a good link on the Vatican’s website with Pope Francis’ Homilies, Messages, etc:
vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/index.htm
If anyone has links to any homilies before the ones above, please feel free to post them. Perhaps this thread can be a central location to post links to future homilies as well
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