Pope Francis, Ecumenical Patriarch sign joint declaration, lament persecution of Christians [CWN]

[phil19034]

Thank you for saying that. There are many different expressions of the faith but some of the differences between us are at a fundamental level.

Yes, we understand this. The biggest fundamental issue is the role of the Bishop of Rome. Almost all the other issues tie back (in one way or another) to the role of the Bishop of Rome.

But all the issues between us, regardless of how fundamental, do not negate the fact that we both, along with the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East all know that the Sacrifice of the Liturgy is real and not symbolic as claimed by many Protestants.

We believe Baptism really washes away sin, and it not a symbolic expression of being a Christian. We believe priests can forgive sins on behalf of Christ. We believe in Confirmation/Chrismation. We believe in Holy Orders/Ordination. We believe in Anointment of the Sick/Unction. We believe Marriage is more than just a legal arrangement recognized by the Church. And we believe that people must not partake in Communion if they do not believe or if they have sin.

We all express the catholic (lower case c) Christian faith of the Apostles.

I wish we would all see each other as family and work on strengthening our bond, instead of focusing on who did what 1000 years ago. Terrible things were done and said on both sides by people a long time ago. Let’s focus on the here and now. Let’s not forget the past, but let’s forgive and move forward together. Full communion or not, why can’t we be brethren in Christ?

May the Holy Spirit bring us wisdom and understanding.

 

[Seraphim73]

I have a few HONEST questions for you:

Let’s assume for one minute that the Eastern Orthodox were to come into full communion with the Catholic Church based on what you might call “Catholic terms” without changing Catholic Dogma (which we cannot do).

1. what jurisdiction do you think the Pope would have over your Churches, which is objectionable to you?

Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. - Pastor aeternus

You can’t have two bishops. It’s not possible for two bishops to have episcopal authority in the same place. Either the pope is the actual bishop or the diocesan bishop is.

1. What is your understanding of Papal Infallibility? Do you understand where it comes from and why the dogma needed to be defined?

Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable. - Pastor aeternus

If you wanted to say that when the pope expresses the mind of the Church what he says is correct then I’m with you. Of course the same could be said for any council or bishop that does the same thing. The problem is the bolded part. It places him above the Church and since the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church that is not possible.

1. There have always been 5 doctrines regarding the Blessed Mother (4 of which the Catholic Church has dogmatically defined – 2 of them while we were both still in communion). What is your understanding of the 5 doctrines and what is your understanding of the Catholic believe in the Immaculate Conception vs. your understanding of the 4th Marian doctrine?

It is my opinion that the IC makes Mary into the great exception. This is problematic for a number of reasons not the least of which is it leads to all kinds of dangerous speculation and hypertrophy regarding her.

 

[Tomdstone]

I do not believe this. I think it’s disingenuous.

We share the same Deposit of Faith. The major difference is the role of the Bishop of Rome. (please do not bring up the other issues the Orthodox have - I simply didn’t want to list them all, as it was not the point of my reply)

Orthodox Christians may receive communion in a Catholic Church when there isn’t an Orthodox Church around and Catholics may receive communion in some Eastern Orthodox Churches when there isn’t a Catholic Church around (assuming their Bishop allows it).

The Faith is the same, but it’s expressed differently (plus belief in the role or Rome). The Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgies are almost identical to Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgies.

Saying our Faith is different is like saying Catholics don’t believe in the Trinity or don’t have the Sacraments. As much as some hate to admit it, the Catholics and Orthodox have far more in common than we have differences. Catholics and Orthodox (both Oriental and Eastern) have more in common with each other than we do with the Anglicans, Lutherans, or any other High Protestants.

Comments like your only fuel separation and do not serve to help in reunification.

Now, if you wanted to say because we “still do not share full communion” or “we still have issues keeping us apart from full communion” then that would have been fair. But to say “we do not currently share the same faith” is totally disingenuous.

If so, why are there so many gestures of friendship, but no intercommunion? 950 years is a long time, and they should have solved this by now.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If so, why are there so many gestures of friendship, but no intercommunion? 950 years is a long time, and they should have solved this by now.

50 years, and as all the articles indicate the Patriarch of Russia has been very busy.

 

[Tomdstone]

50 years, and as all the articles indicate the Patriarch of Russia has been very busy.

2014 - 1054 = 960 years.

 

[7_Sorrows]

:harp:

 

[MartinJordan]

:harp:

mj

 

[Wandile]

2014 - 1054 = 960 years.

The Russians really only broke official communion with Rome round about the 13th century…

Add to that they they’re really hasn’t been any dialogue between the two churches for 95% of the time we were separated. The only two real attempts at reunion between east and west resulted in the east accepting the western positions on all topics both times.

 

[Seraphim73]

The Russians really only broke official communion with Rome round about the 13th century…

Add to that they they’re really hasn’t been any dialogue between the two churches for 95% of the time we were separated. The only two real attempts at reunion between east and west resulted in the east accepting the western positions on all topics both times.

Well to be a little more accurate we should say a very small handful of bishops capitulated under tremendous pressure from the emperor only to repudiate their acceptance after returning home. Under no reasonable standard could you call 30 bishops “the East.”

 

[Wandile]

Well to be a little more accurate we should say a very small handful of bishops capitulated under tremendous pressure from the emperor only to repudiate their acceptance after returning home. Under no reasonable standard could you call 30 bishops “the East.”

Maybe but the numbers game is very questionable because at almost all the ecumenical councils, the west was less represented than the east at these reunion councils yet people always call those councils ecumenical and that the west and been represented.

I see your point though