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janeway529
Guest
Not so. See post #11.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11647418&postcount=11
Also, much to the chagrin of Trads: rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-bishop-as-chief-liturgical-dancer_25.html
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drafdog
Guest
Barry,
I keep saying that you have to be familiar with the rubrics. You don’t seem to have figured out what I’m saying here. You have misconstrued my statement.
Reb Levi
I keep saying that you have to be familiar with the rubrics. You don’t seem to have figured out what I’m saying here. You have misconstrued my statement.
Reb Levi
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ccmcmg
Guest
Hello. Officially, liturgical dance is not allowed in the Mass. Somehow I suspect that these recent words from Pope Francis will be misconstrued to support it:
"I wonder sometimes how many times we despise good people in our hearts, good people who praise the Lord as it comes to them, so spontaneously, because they are not cultured, because they do not follow the formalities? * despise [them]? The Bible says that, because of this, Michal remained sterile for the rest of her life. What does the Word of God mean, here? [It means] that joy, that the prayer of praise makes us fruitful! Sarah danced in the great moment of her fecundity – at the age of ninety! The fruitfulness that praise of the Lord gives us, the gratuity of praising the Lord: that man or that woman who praises the Lord, who prays praising the Lord, who, when praying the Gloria is filled with joy at doing so, and who, when singing the Sanctus in the Mass rejoices in singing it, is a fruitful person.”
Text from page en.radiovaticana.va/news/2014/01/28/pope_francis_at_daily_mass:the_fruitfulness_of_praise/en1-768047*
of the Vatican Radio website
How do we respond to this? Thank you.
I actually read it a bit differently, and not just referring to dance. Also, this is a translation from his original language, correct? If he said it in English, then the same ‘translation’ issues would apply as well. Not every word translates perfectly into another language. (For instance, some of the words I’ve had for the cold weather wouldn’t make sense in another language.But thank you Lord for the moisture!!)
First, I read it as ‘differently/other cultured’ than much of the Western developed world, where such acts are not commonplace in our daily lives, let alone during Mass. We don’t generally express ourselves and our happiness through dance.
I also read it as: when someone does praise the Lord, do not judge. When someone lifts their hand, or face in praise of the Lord, do not judge. We shouldn’t do these things to disrupt Mass, or bring attention to ourselves. But I feel it many times during Mass. I do ‘temper’ it, and know the Lord doesn’t want me to disrupt or draw attention away.
Do not temper someone else’s joy in the Lord. Just because it is expressed differently than how you express it doesn’t make it wrong. I don’t know how people can not sing, not rejoice, not dance in their hearts…I don’t always have that joy, honestly, but I’m so glad when I do.
Personally, I’m more dismayed by the disrespect shown by others who talk with their neighbor throughout Mass, than I am by someone raising her hands, or dancing along to the Gloria in her spot in the pew.
Amen.
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Brendan
Guest
One thing to keep in mind was that David, the traditional author of the Psalms, did his dancing praise OUTSIDE of the liturgy. It was only while the ark was processing from the house of Obed to Jerusalem. Once the ark was placed in the tent, there were offering and breaking of bread, but no dancing. That occasion was solemn
So, by David’s own example, it would be hard to read the Psalms as supporting dance within the context of the liturgy.
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Brendan
Guest
And even then, the Africans ‘dance’ simply as a traditional way of keeping time.
Here is an example I took in my last trip to Tanzania. The choir is leading the procession into Church.
sdrv.ms/1fzLLYB
There are similar movements when people go up during Offertory ( no baskets, people go up and put their monetary offerings into a box, or hand the produce or livestock to an altar boy).
You will see that it bears little resemblance to what passes for ‘liturgical’ dance in the West. If it was just people shuffling their feet in time with the music, or swaying their arms back and forth, there would be no objection.
But cartwheels down the aisle by ladies in leotards is another matter…and the Africans would not even consider such as being appropriate for the liturgy.
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seaton2005
Guest
My parish in the Midwest has been doing liturgical dance for over 10 years now and we have never been told not to do it by the Bishop who is aware that we do it. That’s what attracted me to join this parish and leave my former parish. The music is also from the African American “Lead Me Guide Me” Catholic hymnal which is absolutely fabulous. Has a distinct gospel sound and feel. Just my experience.
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Brendan
Guest
Go to post #5 and review the interview with Cardinal Arinze, at the time, he was head of the Congregation for Divine Worship, the agency in the Vatican that has authority over liturgical practices.
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johnmann
Guest
I can see how swaying, waving, even clapping to the beat, can be part of worship. But dance? I just can’t see it. It’s more like a sport. It can be fun to do and watch, but it doesn’t, in any way, help me connect to God. Maybe it’s possible but not in any culture I’m aware of.
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seaton2005
Guest
The key here is the fact that there is no major church document addressing this issue. Cardinal Arinze says so in the video. He then relates his opinion on the matter. The parish in the Midwest I belong to that uses liturgical dance, is largely an African American parish. They certainly have had a unique experience in America and much of the dance is cultural. It’s a beautiful mass. There is a parish in Chicago (St. Sabina) I believe that’s the name of it, they by the way have a great priest who does much work in the trenches for social justice, I’ve heard they have a beautiful mass with liturgical dancing.
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johnmann
Guest
Maybe they should have concession stands too. Hot dogs and beer. And a laser light show.
Look, if you want to do these things outside of Mass in the parish hall, more power to you. How can I help? But Mass has a purpose and it isn’t to entertain. Have lively music and fiery homilies but I can’t see how people running around with ribbons adds anything of value to the Mass.
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ccmcmg
Guest
Wow. That wasn’t necessary. Just because different cultures don’t have the same cultural expressions in Mass as YOU do, doesn’t make them wrong. If the Vatican had a problem with it, these would NOT be allowed.
Believe me, no one desires reverence at Mass more than I do (see my recent posts on it); however, different cultures express it differently. I don’t sing at Mass to entertain; I don’t feel the wiggle in my waggle during the songs just because they sound good. I don’t feel the joy of the Spirit in my heart and soul for any other reason than to honor, praise, worship God. In general, most of the western world does it very similarly; not 100%, and that doesn’t make it wrong. It would be wrong for me to dance in the aisle in my own Roman Catholic parish. It doesn’t mean it would be out of place in the one he is talking about. I don’t believe it’s there to entertain. It’s expressing worship and praise and joy.
If you had seen the African priests visiting our parishes that I have, you might see it differently. Even if you hadn’t, I hope that you would have openness in your heart to those different than you.
God bless and keep you,
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WildCatholic
Guest
True that. It’s cultural. However it shouldn’t be allowed in the United States unless it’s cultural. Also, to me liturgical dancing that i’ve seen through youtube that i’ve seen in the US seems to be like some weirdo new age ritual or something like that. Honestly what’s so bad about just celebrating a nice normal mass that’s reverent and beautiful, is it that hard.
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johnmann
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ccmcmg, I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing. I’m familiar with St. Sabina and they put on shows during Mass. If you were so filled with the Holy Spirit that you started jumping up and down waving your hands, that would be more appropriate than the shows they put on. They serve no other purpose other than entertainment. You can see for yourself: youtube.com/watch?v=ce-zDNE8zZM
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Petaro
Guest
I love it! I can almost see it. To describe it is to deride it. Well done! Best to leave this embarrassment back in the sixties.
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Brendan
Guest
The problem with that statement is that there is NO culture on Earth that has a history of liturgical dance at Mass.
The Latinos certainly do not, they have gone for centuries without dancing at Mass.
The closest one, as Cardinal Arinze pointed out, and I provided a video for, is African, where there is a rhythmic shuffling of feet to keep time with the music.
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janeway529
Guest
I think the main thing at issue with regard to the United States is: 1) Do cultural liturgical practices immigrate along with their peoples? 2) With integrated parishes that celebrate with certain liturgical practices (i.e. Liturgical “Dance”)*, can members, not of the same ethnic origin, participate in the same form of bodily expression (i.e. Liturgical “Dance”)?
It’s really unity in universality (diversity) rather than unity in uniformity. As Pope Francis has already said, "The Church is Catholic because it is the ‘House of Harmony,’ where unity and diversity know how to join together to be a richness. Let us think of the image of a symphony, which means agreement, harmony, different instruments playing together, each retaining its unmistakable timbre, and their characteristic sounds agree on something in common. Then there is the guide, the conductor, and in the performance everyone plays together in harmony, but the timbre of each instrument is not erased, and the peculiarity of each is used to its best advantage! It’s a beautiful image that tells us that the Church is like a great orchestra in which there is variety. We are not all the same, and we should not all be the same! We are all diverse, different. Everybody has their own qualities, and that’s the beauty of the Church: Everyone brings their own qualities, which are from God, in order to enrich others. Uniformity kills life. The life of the Church is varied, and when we want to make everyone uniform, we kill the gifts of the Holy Spirit."
youtube.com/watch?v=txlhEegKvco
- = I put Dance in quotation marks because not everyone’s understanding of the term Dance is the same. For some, any form of bodily movement is considered “dance.” For this reason, some parishes have gone out of their way to re-term it “Ministry of Movement.”
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janeway529
Guest
I’ll leave this link here.
The History of Dance in the Church refinedundignified.com/the-history-of-dance-in-the-church.html
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I’ll pour through that 80 page paper later, but just off the top of my head, a link to a PAPER (and anybody can write papers) by a group that was formed 10 years ago with the stated mission to ‘bring people to the gospel through dance’ kind of brings the phrase ‘special pleading’ to my mind. Still, I’ll check it out later.
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Brendan
Guest
I did review it,
It has a number of historical errors, such as Constantine granting religious freedom and making it the State religion. It did neither. Religious freedom had already been granted to the Christians, what the Edict of Milan did was to state that property that had been confiscated by the State from Christians was to be returned.
It did confirm that the Catholic Church did not permit dance in the liturgy, and the only modern references are to the Great Awakening, which was a series of Protestant evangelical movements. That, of course, would have no relationship to the conduct of a Catholic liturgy, and offered no evidence that it did.
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