Pope Francis "No More Business as Usual"

[Cojuanco]

Some conservative intellectuals even attempted to explain away the doctrinal pronouncements on social teaching with Pope Benedict, with gold and red pens. Some of you will know of whom I speak.

 

[TimothyH]

I believe that the problem that some people have with Pope Francis is that he emphasizes the social teachings of the Church, not that he’s saying anything that has not been said before.

However, in the past, the popes wrote about these things, but often spoke more about those issues related to human sexuality: abortion, same sex marriage, divorce, contraception and so forth.

The economically/politically conservative Catholic and other felt safe with those subjects. Either did not know the social teachings or put them in the back of his mind, because they were not very present in the pope’s speeches, sermons and interviews.

Francis speaks less about sexually related issues and more about social issues. But there is no discontinuity in his positions on either set of issues. However, the economically and politically conservative is feeling threatened by this talk about social morality, because it’s an area of his life that he has not had to examine under the microscope of morality. Francis is calling him to do so.

The feeling out there is “Won’t someone shut this pope’s mouth?”

I believe Brother, that there is a false divide between social justice issues and personal morality issues. Some think that social justice and personal morality are separate and unrelated issues and there seems to be two opposing “camps”, often at odds with each other.

Msgr. Charles Pope from the Archdiocese of Washington DC wrote about it at his blog. blog.adw.org/2012/09/recovering-a-wider-sense-of-justice/.

Msgr Pope explains how all sin is injustice and all injustice is sin. He invites those who focus more on personal morality issues to consider a broader understanding injustice as sin, and invites those who focus more on issues of social justice to consider personal morality in terms of how it is injustice to God or injustice to those whom we sin against.

The more I thought about it, the more I realized that a world without sin would be perfectly just and a world without injustice would be a world without sin. This is just me speaking but that is what I envision when I read that God will wipe away every tear, that there will be no more mourning or crying or pain in the new heaven and new earth.

When Pope Francis speaks about social issues he is also speaking about sin. They are inextricably linked and there is a false divide. I believe many would be much more comfortable with what the Pope says if they really understood this.

-Tim-

 

[Brendan]

Come on. Read the document, this is not hard. The Holy Father speaks about economics through the whole document, it becomes extremely apparent as to what he is saying, as he speaks about the market several times…

I would disagree with that assement. While there is certainly a section on economic issues, it can hardly be said that the tone runs throughout the document.

There is a whole section on how priest should prepare and give homilies, and there is not a single economic point there at all.

 

[choliks]

I believe that the problem that some people have with Pope Francis is that he emphasizes the social teachings of the Church, not that he’s saying anything that has not been said before.

However, in the past, the popes wrote about these things, but often spoke more about those issues related to human sexuality: abortion, same sex marriage, divorce, contraception and so forth.

The economically/politically conservative Catholic and other felt safe with those subjects. Either did not know the social teachings or put them in the back of his mind, because they were not very present in the pope’s speeches, sermons and interviews.

Francis speaks less about sexually related issues and more about social issues. But there is no discontinuity in his positions on either set of issues. However, the economically and politically conservative is feeling threatened by this talk about social morality, because it’s an area of his life that he has not had to examine under the microscope of morality. Francis is calling him to do so.

The feeling out there is “Won’t someone shut this pope’s mouth?”

Would Someone Just Shut That Pope Up?

 

[jsm951801]

I am a little concerned that since being elected last March, Pope Francis appears almost daily in the news with controversial remarks. I don’t believe all of this is media driven. Benedict XVI took a much more low key approach. The contrast between the two men is stark. Keep in mind that Pope Francis is part of that now graying generation which came of age in the 60’s…“Question Authority,” “Kumbaya my Lord,” and the like. He was, no doubt, trained by Jesuits. Wonder if he ever used clay or wooden chalices and patens in sacred liturgies? Did he call people up from the congregation to encircle the altar during the time of consecration?

Call me a cynic, but I am not about to blindly follow any human leader and place absolute trust in them especially when my intuitive sense says “proceed with caution.” History demonstrates the damage that can be through the cult of personality.

I will continue to pray daily for him and for the Church.

 

[JReducation]

So what has the man done wrong?

Calls people around the world together to pray for peace in Syria – Can’t be that.

Has an intense devotion to Our Lady – Can’t be that.

Promotes confession at every step of the way – Can’t be that.

Promotes the Church and the renewal of each person in the Church – Can’t be that.

Uses Ignatian pedagogy drive home his points – Can’t be that

Has a profound love for the poor and those who suffer – Can’t be that

Condemns immorality found in social structures – Can’t be that

Holds to the Church’s teachings on the hot button topics of the day – Can’t be that

Preaches about the need for prayer, conversion and confidence in God – Can’t be that

Invites non Catholics to into a fraternal relationship with Catholics – Can’t be that

Has definitely made “Catholic Church” a household word these days – Could it be that?

 

[RedCaves]

So what has the man done wrong?

Holds to the Church’s teachings on the hot button topics of the day – Can’t be that

Preaches about the need for prayer, conversion and confidence in God – Can’t be that

Invites non Catholics to into a fraternal relationship with Catholics – Can’t be that

Has definitely made “Catholic Church” a household word these days – Could it be that?

1. He’s been a bit ambiguous in his wording on some teachings, such as homosexuality
2. I though he said “to convert to Catholicism was nonsense”?
3. There’s ecumenism and then there’s false ecumenism
4. The fact that the Cardinals elected a “Happy-Face Pope” means that, for now, the world is not using with as much intensity as before the “Pedophile Priest” schtick against the Church.

 

[JReducation]

1. He’s been a bit ambiguous in his wording on some teachings, such as homosexuality

He has not made a single statement about the Church’s teachings on homosexuality. He said that he cannot judge an individual. This is true. Neither can your or I.

1. I though he said “to convert to Catholicism was nonsense”?

He said that proselytism is nonsense. He makes a distinction between proselytism and evangelization. His distinction is no different from that which was made by Benedict XVI.

1. There’s ecumenism and then there’s false ecumenism

You’ll have to explain what’s wrong with his form of ecumanism and how yours is superior to his, that of Benedict, John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI, John XXIII or Pius XII. You’re up against some pretty knowledgeable and holy men.

1. The fact that the Cardinals elected a “Happy-Face Pope” means that, for now, the world is not using with as much intensity as before the “Pedophile Priest” schtick against the Church.

Did you want them to elect a sour puss?

John XXIII was a pretty jovial fellow and John Paul II was a very chipper chap. Benedict XVI had a dry sense of humor. He was my prof in the 1970s. I remember his whit.

You have something against jovial people?

As to pedophile priests, you have not been reading the papers lately have you? SNAP and a few other groups have taken him to task because according to them he has to stand up an apologize for the pedophilia, even though Pope Benedict did this over and over again. I’m not sure why this apology is now part of the pope’s job description. Nor am I sure how the issue has disappeared, when the papers all speak about the new commission that he created to work on this problem. Did you miss Cardinal O’Malley’s press conference? It’s all over the Internet.

 

[jsm951801]

So what has the man done wrong?

Calls people around the world together to pray for peace in Syria – Can’t be that.

Has an intense devotion to Our Lady – Can’t be that.

Promotes confession at every step of the way – Can’t be that.

Promotes the Church and the renewal of each person in the Church – Can’t be that.

Uses Ignatian pedagogy drive home his points – Can’t be that

Has a profound love for the poor and those who suffer – Can’t be that

Condemns immorality found in social structures – Can’t be that

Holds to the Church’s teachings on the hot button topics of the day – Can’t be that

Preaches about the need for prayer, conversion and confidence in God – Can’t be that

Invites non Catholics to into a fraternal relationship with Catholics – Can’t be that

Has definitely made “Catholic Church” a household word these days – Could it be that?

No need to get defensive. I never said that the Pope has been doing something wrong. I was merely expressing my uneasiness with the manner in which he is presenting himself to the media on a regular basis.

As for the “Catholic Church” being a household word these days, I’m not exactly sure we need this type of publicity. People get very confused. It seems to me that many estranged Catholics are clinging on to the hope that this Pope is going to start the ball rolling to change Catholic teaching on all sorts of social issues. There are even some Catholic clergy and religious with the same cultural mindset. (“On heels of Pope’s comments on gay clergy, priests cite studies suggesting up to 60 percent of Catholic priests are gay” - U.S. News and World Report, July 29, 2013 “Nun who leads Network disparages bishops, hesitant to call herself pro-life” - Catholic World News, June 13, 2012). I think you get the idea.

If enough pressure is exerted upon this current pontiff in this regard, who knows what will happen. I just don’t believe it is a good idea to share every thought with the media. Like the old saying goes, “When you shove a stick into a hornet’s nest you’re bound to get stung badly.”

 

[clem456]

If enough pressure is exerted upon this current pontiff in this regard, **who knows **what will happen. I just don’t believe it is a good idea to share every thought with the media. Like the old saying goes, “When you shove a stick into a hornet’s nest you’re bound to get stung badly.”

The answer to that question is, “God knows” what will happen.
Do you trust him? Or do you want to worry about things you aren’t meant to control?

 

[FAB]

No need to get defensive. I never said that the Pope has been doing something wrong. I was merely expressing my uneasiness with the manner in which he is presenting himself to the media on a regular basis.

As for the “Catholic Church” being a household word these days, I’m not exactly sure we need this type of publicity. People get very confused. It seems to me that many estranged Catholics are clinging on to the hope that this Pope is going to start the ball rolling to change Catholic teaching on all sorts of social issues. There are even some Catholic clergy and religious with the same cultural mindset. (“On heels of Pope’s comments on gay clergy, priests cite studies suggesting up to 60 percent of Catholic priests are gay” - U.S. News and World Report, July 29, 2013 “Nun who leads Network disparages bishops, hesitant to call herself pro-life” - Catholic World News, June 13, 2012). I think you get the idea.

If enough pressure is exerted upon this current pontiff in this regard, who knows what will happen. I just don’t believe it is a good idea to share every thought with the media. Like the old saying goes, “When you shove a stick into a hornet’s nest you’re bound to get stung badly.”

So you are afraid of the the pope and the Church being in the news because of possible negative stories. Well let’s just close the church doors and kneel in prayerful terror of those nasty people.
The Catholic Church needs to be house hold term. All need to know what the Church is about and what it stands for. Who cares if misguided people think that the teaching of the church is going to change. They will come to find out that we stand for God’s truth.
Yes indeed there are changes coming in the Church. No more wishy Washy Catholic that stand in the corner like a fake tree, unable to bear fruit. Instead it is long past time that we approach the world and all in it with Christ’s love.
It has been said over and over again, the pope is not saying anything new. He is presenting it in a different way and this time people are listening, this is a very good event.
His message on economics is in the Church’s social doctrine even the part pertaining to capitalism. His other messages come from various teachings, including the Second Vatican Council.
The Challenge of the New Evangelization is our own faithful to understand the richness of their faith and to work to spread it without fear.

Deacon Frank

 

[FAB]

He has not made a single statement about the Church’s teachings on homosexuality. He said that he cannot judge an individual. This is true. Neither can your or I.

He said that proselytism is nonsense. He makes a distinction between proselytism and evangelization. His distinction is no different from that which was made by Benedict XVI.

You’ll have to explain what’s wrong with his form of ecumanism and how yours is superior to his, that of Benedict, John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI, John XXIII or Pius XII. You’re up against some pretty knowledgeable and holy men.

Did you want them to elect a sour puss?

John XXIII was a pretty jovial fellow and John Paul II was a very chipper chap. Benedict XVI had a dry sense of humor. He was my prof in the 1970s. I remember his whit.

You have something against jovial people?

As to pedophile priests, you have not been reading the papers lately have you? SNAP and a few other groups have taken him to task because according to them he has to stand up an apologize for the pedophilia, even though Pope Benedict did this over and over again. I’m not sure why this apology is now part of the pope’s job description. Nor am I sure how the issue has disappeared, when the papers all speak about the new commission that he created to work on this problem. Did you miss Cardinal O’Malley’s press conference? It’s all over the Internet.

 

[ProVobis]

I wonder if the Holy Father makes a good point here.

Theologians’ work is ‘fascinating but risky,’ Pope says

 

[RedCaves]

He has not made a single statement about the Church’s teachings on homosexuality. He said that he cannot judge an individual. This is true. Neither can your or I.

He said that proselytism is nonsense. He makes a distinction between proselytism and evangelization. His distinction is no different from that which was made by Benedict XVI.

You’ll have to explain what’s wrong with his form of ecumanism and how yours is superior to his, that of Benedict, John Paul II, John Paul I, Paul VI, John XXIII or Pius XII. You’re up against some pretty knowledgeable and holy men.

Did you want them to elect a sour puss?

John XXIII was a pretty jovial fellow and John Paul II was a very chipper chap. Benedict XVI had a dry sense of humor. He was my prof in the 1970s. I remember his whit.

You have something against jovial people?

As to pedophile priests, you have not been reading the papers lately have you? SNAP and a few other groups have taken him to task because according to them he has to stand up an apologize for the pedophilia, even though Pope Benedict did this over and over again. I’m not sure why this apology is now part of the pope’s job description. Nor am I sure how the issue has disappeared, when the papers all speak about the new commission that he created to work on this problem. Did you miss Cardinal O’Malley’s press conference? It’s all over the Internet.

As much as I would like to respond/refute your statements, I need to take a short break from this discussion because apparently, I received an infraction for “Insulting you”.

Since I don’t want to get banned, I’ll be back later when the tides have receded.

 

[choliks]

Paul and the Holy Father are not talking about the same thing. Paul is speaking about a person who is guilty of profaning the Eucharist, because he is conscious of personal culpability and still receives.

The Holy Father’s reference to the wafer wars or whatever the term was is about people who are objectively guilty, but subjectively they may not be culpable. If the person is not subjectively culpable, Paul’s statement does not apply and the only thing between the person and the Eucharist is Canon Law. The pope can change Canon Law or he can restate it so that it is clear that it only applies to those who are subjectively culpable.

Can, will and should are not the same words. We have to remember this. Will he do this? I have no idea. Should he do it? I have no idea either. I’m not allowed to have an idea or an opinion on this matter. We have been ordered to not think about this matter and not to have an opinion of our own on this specific subject under penalty of grave mortal sin. We’re only allowed to have the same opinion as the pope. So I’m waiting for his opinion as are 1.7 million Franciscans. Well those Franciscans who are faithful Catholics anyway.

Obedience is such a wonderful thing. It is very liberating. If it’s not a sin, you put your feelings and thoughts aside and do, think and feel as you’re told. Would that everyone were able to do this. It’s heaven on earth.

Just a question Bro. JR… Does this extend to bishops? Are Franciscans allowed to criticize other bishops, let’s say, for saying something odd?

 

[felsguy]

Would Someone Just Shut That Pope Up?

Thanks for this post. I encourage all to read this most excellent article in its entirety. Don’t be put off by its title which is meant as sarcasm.

PS. Be forewarned, if read with an open and thoughtful mind, it may be a bit discomfitting.
Or you can just get all the more upset and angry if that’s what floats your ark.

 

[JReducation]

Just a question Bro. JR… Does this extend to bishops? Are Franciscans allowed to criticize other bishops, let’s say, for saying something odd?

Not unless you want your head handed to you by your superior. I won’t say that it never happens, so do other kinds of sin. But are they supposed to happen? Never.

Having said that, I should add a disclaimer. LOL

Every religious family is made up of human beings who are on their way to sainthood, but not there yet. The Rule is the ideal toward which we strive. It’s like the Via Dolorosa. We walk. We fall. We rise and the cycle repeats itself until we reach the cross.

I have disciplined a number of times for this kind of behavior. I’m sure that I’m not the only superior who has had to do so.

 

[JReducation]

No need to get defensive. I never said that the Pope has been doing something wrong. I was merely expressing my uneasiness with the manner in which he is presenting himself to the media on a regular basis.

As for the “Catholic Church” being a household word these days, I’m not exactly sure we need this type of publicity. People get very confused. It seems to me that many estranged Catholics are clinging on to the hope that this Pope is going to start the ball rolling to change Catholic teaching on all sorts of social issues. There are even some Catholic clergy and religious with the same cultural mindset. (“On heels of Pope’s comments on gay clergy, priests cite studies suggesting up to 60 percent of Catholic priests are gay” - U.S. News and World Report, July 29, 2013 “Nun who leads Network disparages bishops, hesitant to call herself pro-life” - Catholic World News, June 13, 2012). I think you get the idea.

If enough pressure is exerted upon this current pontiff in this regard, who knows what will happen. I just don’t believe it is a good idea to share every thought with the media. Like the old saying goes, “When you shove a stick into a hornet’s nest you’re bound to get stung badly.”

We should prefer that the Catholic Church be a household word for any reason than be ignored. We can always correct misunderstandings. Once people have one foot inside the door, we can help them get in the rest of the way. But if people turn their backs on us because we come across as arrogant, uncaring, unforgiving, holier than thou, and judgmental, there aren’t going to be too many people who will be even curious about what we have to say.

There is not enough pressure in the universe that can make a pope teach error. You know that. Such a thought would border on heresy, since the Church cannot teach error even in the ordinary magisterium. Unless he’s teaching chemistry. This pope is a chemical engineer, psychologist and theologian, so he probably knows more chemistry than the average Joe.

As much as I would like to respond/refute your statements, I need to take a short break from this discussion because apparently, I received an infraction for “Insulting you”.

Since I don’t want to get banned, I’ll be back later when the tides have receded.

You insulted me? When? Why did you not tell me that you were insulting me so that I could be properly insulted or would have put on the proper face? Clueless

Thanks for this post. I encourage all to read this most excellent article in its entirety. Don’t be put off by its title which is meant as sarcasm.

PS. Be forewarned, if read with an open and thoughtful mind, it may be a bit discomfitting.
Or you can just get all the more upset and angry if that’s what floats your ark.

Someone posted this on Facebook. I saw it. It’s great. Isn’t it?

 

[Seamus_L]

I’m curious as to how this thread relates to Traditional Catholicism ?

 

[RedCaves]

You insulted me? When? Why did you not tell me that you were insulting me so that I could be properly insulted or would have put on the proper face? Clueless

It was not my intention to insult you. I am a bit clueless about this whole situation, too.

One of the moderators granted me an infraction because he/she thinks I did.

According to the infraction, I “insulted” you because I disagreed that you are a Traditional Catholic.

Nevertheless, when things have calmed down, I’ll return.