Pope Francis on Annulments

[agentlank]

This may have already been discussed, but I found it interesting. It appears that Pope Francis has a better understanding of why there are so many annulments in the US. The unfortunate and sad facts are that many Catholics and even more non-Catholics don’t have the same understanding as the Church.

As I am coming into the Church next weekend I’ve had many discussions with friends both Catholic and non-Catholic about annulments and the Church’s stance. I fully understand what the Church teaches about valid marriages, but I find it very hard to believe there are many valid marriages out there. The fact that we live in a divorce society with exposure all around it is hard for young people not to be inundated with the divorce culture.

To me Pope Francis has it right with his compassion and understanding, but the Church also needs to do a better job of educating young couples that want to marry. However at the same time I don’t know what to do about all of the converts that don’t have the same understanding on marriage. (just an example, I was raised Episcopalian and my mom would explain to me the difference between the Episcopal church and Catholics was that the Episcopal church allowed divorce and it was acceptable.)

catholicnewsagency.com/news/for-pope-francis-faith-is-a-criterion-in-investigating-a-marriages-validity-29144/

 

[Usige]

I completely agree that we need to educate people better. It’s why my wife and I work so hard at marriage prep. The problem is that so few Catholics even get married in the Church anymore that it’s hard to educate them when they aren’t around. I have been a proponent of doing some level of marriage catechesis while kids are still in high school. It’s not perfect since so few marry in their teens or early twenties, but hopefully it plants the seeds on the basics of Church teaching.

I wouldn’t say that simply coming from a church that allow divorce makes those marriages highly likely to be invalid. I was raised in a church that allowed divorce and my wife was not even raised christian. Despite that we talked alot about how when we married it would be for life. Most of us think that when we exchange vows. I think that reason is that the truth of marriage is written on our hearts. It is only when we harden our hearts and reject what God calls us to that it is lost. Unfortunately many lose it because of premarital sex and other sins that blind them to the reality of marriage before they exchange their vows. That being said there are still many who see through the detritus and can still discern true marriage outside of the Church. That is why marriage is assumed to be valid unless proven otherwise.

 

[MaryT777]

This may have already been discussed, but I found it interesting. It appears that Pope Francis has a better understanding of why there are so many annulments in the US. The unfortunate and sad facts are that many Catholics and even more non-Catholics don’t have the same understanding as the Church.

As I am coming into the Church next weekend I’ve had many discussions with friends both Catholic and non-Catholic about annulments and the Church’s stance. I fully understand what the Church teaches about valid marriages, but I find it very hard to believe there are many valid marriages out there. The fact that we live in a divorce society with exposure all around it is hard for young people not to be inundated with the divorce culture.

To me Pope Francis has it right with his compassion and understanding, but the Church also needs to do a better job of educating young couples that want to marry. However at the same time I don’t know what to do about all of the converts that don’t have the same understanding on marriage. (just an example, I was raised Episcopalian and my mom would explain to me the difference between the Episcopal church and Catholics was that the Episcopal church allowed divorce and it was acceptable.)

catholicnewsagency.com/news/for-pope-francis-faith-is-a-criterion-in-investigating-a-marriages-validity-29144/

Well written post and I appreciate the compassion of the Pope as you so eloquently expressed.

Mary.

 

[Nelka]

Annulments confuse me the most.

 

[Vico]

… I find it very hard to believe there are many valid marriages out there. The fact that we live in a divorce society with exposure all around it is hard for young people not to be inundated with the divorce culture…

So take the USA for example (CDC, National Survey of Family Growth):

• Marriage rate: 6.8 per 1000
• Divorce rate: 3.4 per 1000
• Percent of married women who say religion is very important 60.1%
• Percent of married men who say religion is very important 50.9%

 

[KCT]

Our daughter and son in law went through a very rigorous marriage prep program. The priest running it at the time said the one of the goals was no annulable marriages!

 

[Vico]

Annulments confuse me the most.

Understandable since there are so many considerations. Even with a proper Catholic marriage, is not certainly known if there was any lying that would invalidate it. Marriages are presumed to be valid.

 

[agentlank]

fyi, I completely agree with the presumption that all marriages are valid until proven otherwise. All marriages must be looked at on a case by case basis. And the reality of that is that most non-Catholic marriages would/could be found invalid. I think the statistics of annulment in the US prove that point. Especially when cradle Catholics are granted annulment on a regular basis how can people expect non-Catholics to be held to a standard that they don’t recognize.

 

[johnnyt3000]

We need to educate our youth about sexuality and not contraception. It all starts with sex. The sexual revolution did a lot of damage to our society. Once you teach people that unlimited sex is good, you have already made the first step to legalized abortion and radically high divorce rates.

 

[Vico]

We need to educate our youth about sexuality and not contraception. It all starts with sex. The sexual revolution did a lot of damage to our society. Once you teach people that unlimited sex is good, you have already made the first step to legalized abortion and radically high divorce rates.

Although for Catholics chastity is always the norm, it was a scandalous environment that developed. The *sexual norms *began changing after about the 1880s with the bicycle (with women taking up sports) and removal of the formality or ‘calling’ and requiring a chaperone (to prevent touching). In the USA, the dating system was established in the 1920s and in Europe by moving to informal engagements and emphasis on ‘going steady’. In the 1930s, USA, dating became a competitive venture, and to indulge in petting, and also for men to pay for the date, vs going Dutch. This is also called ‘paying and petting’. Europe was different and more formal, unlike the USA, but there was a period of getting to know each other, and once engaged, there was sexual freedom.

It then escalated after the 1950s, which is the usual time assigned to the Sexual Revolution.

Here is one sociological reference for this:

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Frevistas.ucm.es%2Findex.php%2FPOSO%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F40026%2F40773&ei=S1wXVY7bDMedNs-ug9gM&usg=AFQjCNE5HFcVmWpCkrZmp208vhzp4z2RZA&bvm=bv.89381419,d.eXY&cad=rja

 

[agentlank]

So take the USA for example (CDC, National Survey of Family Growth):

• Marriage rate: 6.8 per 1000
• Divorce rate: 3.4 per 1000
• Percent of married women who say religion is very important 60.1%
• Percent of married men who say religion is very important 50.9%

I can’t argue with the stats that the majority of Americans say that religion is very important. But we can say with some certainty is that the majority of Americans don’t have the same view as the Catholic Church when it comes to the indissolvabilty of a marriage.

 

[Vico]

I can’t argue with the stats that the majority of Americans say that religion is very important. But we can say with some certainty is that the majority of Americans don’t have the same view as the Catholic Church when it comes to the indissolvabilty of a marriage.

Religious Tolerance categorized Bible based beliefs on divorce and remarriage into six groups, but incorrectly describes the Catholic position, which actually hold that divorce is possible in some circumstances but the bond remains, but there is not mention of natural marriage dissolution nor of dissolution of non-consummated Catholic marriages. It states:

The main positions are:

1. 
   *]Neither divorce nor remarriage are allowed. (A conservative Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK, but remarriage is forbidden – described below. (A second conservative Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK in cases of adultery or desertion; remarriage is OK. (A conservative/mainline Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK for many reasons; remarriage is OK. (A mainline/liberal Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is impossible, unless the marriage never existed. (Roman Catholic)
   *]Divorce is OK in cases of marriage breakdown; remarriage is OK. (Religious liberal and secular view.)
   
   religioustolerance.org/div_ok1.htm

 

[agentlank]

Religious Tolerance categorized Bible based beliefs on divorce and remarriage into six groups, but incorrectly describes the Catholic position, which actually hold that divorce is possible in some circumstances but the bond remains, but there is not mention of natural marriage dissolution nor of dissolution of non-consummated Catholic marriages. It states:

The main positions are:

1. 
   *]Neither divorce nor remarriage are allowed. (A conservative Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK, but remarriage is forbidden – described below. (A second conservative Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK in cases of adultery or desertion; remarriage is OK. (A conservative/mainline Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK for many reasons; remarriage is OK. (A mainline/liberal Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is impossible, unless the marriage never existed. (Roman Catholic)
   *]Divorce is OK in cases of marriage breakdown; remarriage is OK. (Religious liberal and secular view.)
   
   religioustolerance.org/div_ok1.htm

1. 
   You are still trying to lump everyone together, which isn’t possible. look at Southern Baptist churches as an example.(for the most part very conservative) all of these churches have the autonomy to decide what they accept as biblical.
   
   classroom.synonym.com/southern-baptist-remarriage-beliefs-14103.html

 

[Vico]

You are still trying to lump everyone together, which isn’t possible. look at Southern Baptist churches as an example.(for the most part very conservative) all of these churches have the autonomy to decide what they accept as biblical.

classroom.synonym.com/southern-baptist-remarriage-beliefs-14103.html

Of course it is impossible! That site is only listing the main positions. The Radical Reformation produced many more positions than the Magisterial Reformation. As an example polygamy was embraced by some Anabaptists.

 

[heidi_storage]

Religious Tolerance categorized Bible based beliefs on divorce and remarriage into six groups, but incorrectly describes the Catholic position, which actually hold that divorce is possible in some circumstances but the bond remains, but there is not mention of natural marriage dissolution nor of dissolution of non-consummated Catholic marriages. It states:

The main positions are:

1. 
   *]Neither divorce nor remarriage are allowed. (A conservative Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK, but remarriage is forbidden – described below. (A second conservative Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK in cases of adultery or desertion; remarriage is OK. (A conservative/mainline Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is OK for many reasons; remarriage is OK. (A mainline/liberal Protestant view)
   *]Divorce is impossible, unless the marriage never existed. (Roman Catholic)
   *]Divorce is OK in cases of marriage breakdown; remarriage is OK. (Religious liberal and secular view.)
   
   religioustolerance.org/div_ok1.htm

1. 
   I thought Catholics believed that a civil divorce was permissible in some circumstances, but the marital bond still remained? Also, what about Pauline/Petrine privilege?

 

[Vico]

I thought Catholics believed that a civil divorce was permissible in some circumstances, but the marital bond still remained? Also, what about Pauline/Petrine privilege?

That is why I made the note before the quote, Religious Tolerance site did not correctly represent Catholic belief and practice.

 

[agentlank]

Most of us on this forum believe Mother Church can do no wrong and therefore the statistics on annulments in the US, while alarming, do show that a very high number of marriages that are at the very least requesting an annulment are in fact invalid.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/470/annulment_nation.aspx

So my question is, would God want someone to be in an invalid marriage?

 

[MaryT777]

Most of us on this forum believe Mother Church can do no wrong and therefore the statistics on annulments in the US, while alarming, do show that a very high number of marriages that are at the very least requesting an annulment are in fact invalid.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/470/annulment_nation.aspx

So my question is, would God want someone to be in an invalid marriage?

People need to remember before for you file for an ‘annulment’ decree of nullity you are screened by someone; a deacon, priest, or someone working for the Tribunal. If they feel you have no chance of having your marriage declared null then you are dissuaded from filing.

The stats also don’t show the number of people who quit in the middle of the process with no defining decision to add to the stats.

God does not want someone in an invalid marriage; thus the process.

Mary.

 

[Xantippe]

People need to remember before for you file for an ‘annulment’ decree of nullity you are screened by someone; a deacon, priest, or someone working for the Tribunal. If they feel you have no chance of having your marriage declared null then you are dissuaded from filing.

The stats also don’t show the number of people who quit in the middle of the process with no defining decision to add to the stats.

God does not want someone in an invalid marriage; thus the process.

Mary.

Yes.

I haven’t looked it up, but presumably a surprisingly high percentage of the people that start the Boston marathon finish the Boston marathon.

However, that percentage (whatever it is) does not reflect the ability of the general population to finish a marathon. The people who are willing to enter and start running in a marathon are not the same as the general population.

 

[JillyAnn]

In my experience, marriage prep was a joke. That Engaged Encounter program is a waste. You spend the weekends doing activities that don’t dig down into who you really are. It’s glorified Bible camp. I got more out of talking to the psychiatrist for my annulment than I did at the EE. Personally, I think all couples who want to be married in the church should be screened/counseled by a Catholic psych. they will get a much better understanding of themselves and marriage and whether or not you will be able to live with the person you chose…

I agree Pope Francis has a very compassionate and realistic view of what is happening in our society.