Pope Francis on Annulments

[FCGeorge]

But the legal and divine truths are always going to be out of sync–the spouses are always free to civilly divorce in the US and a lot of other countries.

The problem I see with your scheme is that frequently in the US, legal separation is an opportunity for reconciliation, and I don’t think it should be viewed as a sign that all reconciliation is impossible at that point. There are many couples that need a legal separation for financial and legal protection, but need that grey area to work things out. (For instance, a spouse might need to demonstrate that they are clean and sober, are willing to be gainfully employed, or are being financially responsible.) I would personally really question the prudence of making annulments available at that point–I think that the entire separation period needs to be free of that sort of distraction.

Hello Xantippe, I am trying to understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying that legal separation should not be viewed as a “sign that all reconciliation is impossible” but that civil divorce somehow is?

I’m not sure you are saying this but it is a popular idea from the father of all lies that, sadly, many priests and tribunalists espouse. They say, “see, the civil divorce is a sign that all attempts to reconcile have been tried and failed. It is a sign that there is no hope for reconciliation left.”

This is exactly where the devil wants us to get to. It keeps families torn apart and allows him to more easily claim souls.

Instead, I think we should actually believe in the God through Whom all things are possible. Even the reconciliation of hard hearted spouses after a civil divorce. I think we give civil divorce far too much power… and the devil likely likes that.

 

[Xantippe]

Hello Xantippe,
I don’t believe a very high percentage of professing Catholics who civilly divorce their spouses actually think they will “spend the rest of their lives alone.” I suspect the vast majority think they are free to date other people after the civil divorce. Most call themselves “no longer married” and refer to their spouse as their “ex-husband” or “ex-wife” as if they are no longer their husband or wife. Most act unmarried after the civil divorce. That, I believe, is the real world. And sadly, not many shepherds are willing to help them see that this claim to no longer be married is a “grave offense against the natural law” and that persisting in grave offenses against the natural law will lead souls to eternal separation from God.

I don’t believe there are merits to telling someone they have to do something that “cannot be tolerated” (as our Catechism plainly calls civil divorce) by the Church in order to have the validity of their marriage ruled on.

**When I say “practicing Catholic” I meant more than the occasional Mass on Sunday–I mean being well-informed about what it means to be a Catholic in good standing and making a good effort to do those things–marriage in the Church, Mass every Sunday when circumstances allow, Lenten abstinence, fasting on Ash Wednesday, fasting on Good Friday, regular confession, scrupulous attendance on holy days of obligation, no artificial birth control, etc. Meaning, somebody like a regular CAF poster.

If a person like that gets a divorce, knowing that they may very well face a life alone (or at least many years of it) and accepting that fact, I think the odds are that they have excellent reasons for a divorce. **

Also, bear in mind that a so-so Catholic is not going to go to their bishop for divorce permission. That is simply not going to happen. For one, how often do any of us interact with our bishop, anyway? It’s like getting in to see the mayor in a big city. Also, I’m pretty sure that, as it is, practicing Catholics in struggling marriages frequently talk to a priest about their problems. Think, for instance, how many opportunities a frequently confessing Catholic would have to mention particular points of difficulty in the confessional. Hence, I suspect that almost no Catholics that are making an effort to be Catholic divorce without talking (and probably more than once) about the situation to their priest.

This is done simply to prevent law suits. And I pray our bishops will stop fearing man-judges and instead fear the God-Judge.

That’s ridiculous and uncharitable.

Isn’t there a far simpler explanation? That the US bishops do not wish to be flooded with applications from people who aren’t serious and just want to explore all of their options.

Limiting annulment applications to divorced persons ensures that almost everybody applying for an annulment is serious about the process.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s some basic data for the discussion:

ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/despite-low-catholic-marriage-numbers-some-see-trend-turning-around

"The number of Catholic marriages in the United States is at its lowest point since 1965.
Georgetown University’s Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate keeps records of Catholic church statistics going back to 1965, tracking such things as the total number of priests, the Catholic population of the United States, and the number of baptisms and marriages per year.

“The statistics show that while there were over 420,000 Catholic marriages in 1970, that number has dwindled to just over 154,000 for the year 2014.”

"“However, even the United States is seeing a lower number of annulments, which have dropped from 60,691 in 1985, the earliest data available, to 18,558 last year. “Divorce is becoming less common” in the U.S., according to Gray. “In aggregate terms, fewer marriages means fewer divorces.””

I do not think that under 19,000 annulments a year in the US is something to panic over. That’s a very reasonable number for our population, particularly since many annulments are granted to people that were non-Catholics when they attempted to marry.

 

[JillyAnn]

Here’s some basic data for the discussion:

ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/despite-low-catholic-marriage-numbers-some-see-trend-turning-around

"The number of Catholic marriages in the United States is at its lowest point since 1965.
Georgetown University’s Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate keeps records of Catholic church statistics going back to 1965, tracking such things as the total number of priests, the Catholic population of the United States, and the number of baptisms and marriages per year.

“The statistics show that while there were over 420,000 Catholic marriages in 1970, that number has dwindled to just over 154,000 for the year 2014.”

"“However, even the United States is seeing a lower number of annulments, which have dropped from 60,691 in 1985, the earliest data available, to 18,558 last year. “Divorce is becoming less common” in the U.S., according to Gray. “In aggregate terms, fewer marriages means fewer divorces.””

I do not think that under 19,000 annulments a year in the US is something to panic over. That’s a very reasonable number for our population, particularly since many annulments are granted to people that were non-Catholics when they attempted to marry.

But fewer Catholic, religious Marriages also means fewer annulments.

The divorce rate in this country is the highest it has ever been. Most Catholics don’t want to “jump through the hoops” of annulment. When really, it isn’t difficult,it just forces you to take a long hard look at who you really are and what your intentions were when you got married.

Civil divorce is very easy in most states…Most states have a no fault divorce. The legal separation of at least 1 year is required before the no fault divorce will be granted…meaning you have to live in separate residences, separate your costs,etc.

I believe, based on my experience with the many people I meet, that most Catholics who were originally married in the Church will remarry civilly and change religions to another christian denomination.

 

[Xantippe]

But fewer Catholic, religious Marriages also means fewer annulments.

The divorce rate in this country is the highest it has ever been.

**No, it’s not.

nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-the-myth-lives-on.html?abt=0002&abg=0**

"The divorce rate peaked in the 1970s and early 1980s and has been declining for the three decades since.

“About 70 percent of marriages that began in the 1990s reached their 15th anniversary (excluding those in which a spouse died), up from about 65 percent of those that began in the 1970s and 1980s. Those who married in the 2000s are so far divorcing at even lower rates. If current trends continue, nearly two-thirds of marriages will never involve a divorce, according to data from Justin Wolfers, a University of Michigan economist (who also contributes to The Upshot).”

 

[Usige]

Here’s some basic data for the discussion:

ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/despite-low-catholic-marriage-numbers-some-see-trend-turning-around

"The number of Catholic marriages in the United States is at its lowest point since 1965.
Georgetown University’s Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate keeps records of Catholic church statistics going back to 1965, tracking such things as the total number of priests, the Catholic population of the United States, and the number of baptisms and marriages per year.

“The statistics show that while there were over 420,000 Catholic marriages in 1970, that number has dwindled to just over 154,000 for the year 2014.”

"“However, even the United States is seeing a lower number of annulments, which have dropped from 60,691 in 1985, the earliest data available, to 18,558 last year. “Divorce is becoming less common” in the U.S., according to Gray. “In aggregate terms, fewer marriages means fewer divorces.””

I do not think that under 19,000 annulments a year in the US is something to panic over. That’s a very reasonable number for our population, particularly since many annulments are granted to people that were non-Catholics when they attempted to marry.

The drop in annulments isn’t because things are getting better, but simply that people are abandoning the Church or never getting married in the first place. They are now just living together, having kids and breaking up. No marriage, no need for an annulment.

 

[Xantippe]

The drop in annulments isn’t because things are getting better, but simply that people are abandoning the Church or never getting married in the first place. They are now just living together, having kids and breaking up. No marriage, no need for an annulment.

But would you say that there are obviously way too many annulments?

I don’t think that less than 19,000 annulments a year for the entire US is obviously out of line, given the size of our population, the number of divorced non-Catholics going through RCIA, the prevalence of serious mental illness, substance abuse, various undisclosed addictive behaviors, undisclosed or unknown homosexuality, asexuality, persistent and compulsive cheating before and after marriage, abuse before and after marriage, shotgun weddings, etc., etc. I think you get to 19,000 rather quickly.

 

[Usige]

But would you say that there are obviously way too many annulments?

I don’t think that less than 19,000 annulments a year for the entire US is obviously out of line, given the size of our population, the number of divorced non-Catholics going through RCIA, the prevalence of serious mental illness, substance abuse, various undisclosed addictive behaviors, undisclosed or unknown homosexuality, asexuality, persistent and compulsive cheating before and after marriage, abuse before and after marriage, shotgun weddings, etc., etc. I think you get to 19,000 rather quickly.

I can’t say if that is too many, though I still find 19,000 extremely sad. Personally I would love to see the day that there were zero annulments because mankind actually recognized marriage for what God himself meant it to be.

The number of annulments are simply a sign of how far mankind has separated itself from Christ. And no, having 1/3 the number of annulments from their peak doesn’t mean we are moving closer to Him. It simply means that many have completely abandoned Him and the Church. Once we see marriages in the Church climbing and divorce and annulments both falling, then I might think the tide is turning.

I fear we are actually standing at the brink of a complete collapse of marriage as a social institution. Heck if you take the number of Catholics that accept Same Sex Marriage then it is possible that there are significantly more invalid marriages out there. if you support SSM then I wonder if your understanding of what marriage is is faulty and therefore open for a declaration of nullity.