Pope Francis on denying communion to facilitators of abortion

[Ender]

Shouldn’t the ushers also block those who have masturbated, couples who have had sex outside of marriage, people who have purposely missed Mass, etc., all without having gone to confession?

Honestly, all of the centuries of deep, intellectual theological insight goes out of the window when someone says something like this. Could you imagine the result of such an action during distribution of communion?

I don’t think you understand the point being made. It is a church law that communion be denied to those who “obstinately persist in manifest, grave sin.” The key word that answers your objection is that the sin be manifest, that is, publicly known. What is your objection to the application of this canon (#915)?

Ender

 

[Ender]

We’re all sinners, even – amazingly – the righteous who never sin and who would like to deny others communion. If we deny it to those who facilitate abortions, it is only a very short walk to denying it to all other sinners, and then to all of those who perhaps “don’t do enough to end the sin elsewhere,” i.e., in other words, every one of us.

Like Timothysis you have missed the key points involved in this discussion. It is not simply a question of one group of people deciding who should or should not receive communion. The question deals with the proper application of church law, specifically Canon 915 which orders the minister of communion to refuse communion to those who meet its conditions. What argument can you make that this law should be ignored?

Ender

 

[Timothysis]

I don’t think you understand the point being made. It is a church law that communion be denied to those who "obstinately persist in manifest, grave sin." The key word that answers your objection is that the sin be manifest, that is, publicly known. What is your objection to the application of this canon (#915)?

Ender

Actually, Canon Law requires that those guilty of any “mortal” sin abstain from the reception of communion until reconciled to the Church through confession. Period. Your interpretation of Canon 915 seems to be contrary to the bishops, since they have not reached the same conclusion as you. The application of Canon 915 is up to the bishops, not people on an internet forum.

Do you think it sensible to have ushers attempt to block someone from presenting themselves for communion?

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Actually, Canon Law requires that those guilty of any “mortal” sin abstain from the reception of communion until reconciled to the Church through confession. Period. Your interpretation of Canon 915 seems to be contrary to the bishops, since they have not reached the same conclusion as you. The application of Canon 915 is up to the bishops, not people on an internet forum.

Do you think it sensible to have ushers attempt to block someone from presenting themselves for communion?

Was it sensible for Blessed Franz Jägerstätter to defy the teaching of the Catholic Church, and to defy the direct commands of numerous Catholic priests who came to his jail cell to advise him? When he was on the earth, Blessed Franz Jägerstätter was just Franz Jägerstätter, a nobody lay Catholic who was found guilty of disobeying the laws and teachings of the Catholic Church and the laws of the German State.

Yet, 60 years later Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger) declared Blessed Franz Jägerstätter to be a martyr. Young Joseph Ratzinger was also drafted into the Germany Army during Germany’s wars of aggression under Hitler. Joseph Ratzinger hated Hitler and the Nazi movement as much as Blessed Franz Jägerstätter. But young Joseph Ratzinger chose not be a martyr. He served in the Germany army, in an anti-aircraft artillery unit. Young Joseph Ratzinger obeyed Church law and did his patriotic service to his homeland nation. Years later, as pope, in his second encyclical titled Spe Salvi, Joseph Ratzinger would write about how the world needs martyrs. I cannot help but assume that old Joseph Ratzinger looks back at young Joseph Ratzinger and wishes he’d done what Blessed Franz Jägerstätter did.

But, in truth, Catholics are always not morally required to take the martyr’s path. I am not condemning Pope Benedict. I view him as the best pope and best theologian in my lifetime so far.

Yet, neither can we cannot condemn the law breaking (both of Church law and state law) of Blessed Franz Jägerstätter. There is always a Higher Law, God’s Law. Remember too how the Pharisees and the Scribes viewed Jesus as a law breaker, but Jesus said there was a Higher Law, the Law of Love.

With 50 million murdered unborn babies in the USA so far, don’t we have a SERIOUS and EXTREME situation on our hands?

Wasn’t Pope Benedict XVI right in declaring Blessed Franz Jägerstätter to be blessed in 2007? Wasn’t Pope Benedict trying to tell us something?

I recommend that we all study the life of Blessed Franz Jägerstätter.
vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20071026_jagerstatter_en.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Jägerstätter

I recommend that everyone study the life of Pope Benedict XVI. Public libraries generally have several good biographies of him. His life is fascinating, and generally unknown except for a few details that are often mentioned.

I recommend that everyone study Pope Benedict’s encyclical Spe Salvi.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

These studies have helped me.

 

[Ender]

Actually, Canon Law requires that those guilty of any “mortal” sin abstain from the reception of communion until reconciled to the Church through confession.

You are referring to Canon 916:
*A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession *…

Your explanation of this canon is correct: the individual has a particular obligation not to present himself for communion if he is in a state of grave sin. This, however, has nothing to do with Canon 915 which addresses not the obligation of the individual receiving communion but the obligation of the person distributing it.

Your interpretation of Canon 915 seems to be contrary to the bishops, since they have not reached the same conclusion as you. The application of Canon 915 is up to the bishops, not people on an internet forum.

“My” interpretation is nothing more than citing the words of the canon itself, which are rather easy to understand. Beyond that, however, this is also the opinion of the Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, who is the highest judicial authority in the church.

Do you think it sensible to have ushers attempt to block someone from presenting themselves for communion?

I do not. I suspect the authority to deny communion rests solely with the minister distributing it.

Ender

 

[manualman]

I think it’s important to recognize the difference between refusing to be complicit in an action one has discerned to be gravely immoral and taking vigilante action to prevent somebody ELSE from doing something gravely immoral.

Absolutely, abortion enablers are bringing condemnation upon themselves when they partake of the Eucharist. Absolutely that is a horrifying abuse of the sacrament and a scandal to the faithful.

It seems I recall another time when a hotheaded disciple of Christ jumped up, grabbed the sword and defended him against unjust abuse. St. Peter did that when the guards came to arrest Jesus. But Jesus rebuked him and told him that He had CHOSEN to submit to the passion (in so many words). In the end, they don’t win, don’t worry.

I don’t think vigilante ushers is the answer. I’d sure love to hear our leaders publicly excoriate those blood-drenched pols in homilies too (especially when they are present), but it’s not my role or my decision.

 

[OriginalJS]

I doubt if anyone wants a scuffle during mass.

 

[Seeker1961]

So the Mass is over…and what happened? I didn’t read anywhere that the Pope denied communion to anyone.

 

[speakttruth]

We’ll know they have repented when they have UNDONE the horrific, monstrous, murderous damage of their public endorsement of abortion rights WHEN they publicly state that they now oppose all abortion rights legislation and court decisions and will consistently vote against abortion laws. Lay people can’t judge the state of anyone’s souls. Nor do we need to. No lay person can even judge the state of the soul of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin. But we can know what they were doing and publicly saying and we can legitimately condemn that.

Aren’t 50 million dead unborn babies in the USA in the last 40 years enough?

Isn’t it time we get off the 500 year plan and start getting serious?

The trains are still running to Auschwitz, folks. This isn’t just another political issue. This is a Holocaust. Yet, we all sleep just fine and night, have our parties, and act like everything’s normal.

SHAME ON US.

Yes, shame on us. When are we going to learn???
God help us!

 

[JaKael02]

Unity on the Church is this is obtained by the laity praying for our shephards. We must pray.

 

[Ender]

So the Mass is over…and what happened? I didn’t read anywhere that the Pope denied communion to anyone.

I wouldn’t read too much into this. As a practical matter, how would it be done? It might be obvious to politically aware Americans when a politician who supports abortion comes up for communion but we surely wouldn’t recognize politicians from other countries and, at the inaugural mass for a new pope - attended by people in the hundreds of thousands - I’m guessing other issues took precedence.

There will be other times when the crowds are significantly smaller and the audience is primarily American for this issue to play out. I am cautiously optimistic.

Ender

 

[wynnejj]

It seems to me that the crux of the matter is that a priest who knowingly gives the Holy Eucharist to a public official who upholds abortion rights on demand as correct public policy is formally cooperating with the grievous sin of sacrilege to the Holy Eucharist. Unless that is the understanding of Canon 915 and the duty it entails, then I see no reason to have Canon 915.

 

[bellasbane]

So the Mass is over…and what happened? I didn’t read anywhere that the Pope denied communion to anyone.

Looks like their meeting was brief but friendly - smiles on all sides.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2206&pictureid=14900

 

[Faithdancer]

Still, you are acting as if WE can do something about stopping politicians who support abortion from receiving communion. We can do nothing; if we did, we would out of place and gravely sinning.

One thing that “we” meaning all Catholics, collectively can do is stop electing pro-abortion politicians. A vote for Obama, a vote for Biden, a vote for Pelosi- these are all, by proxy, votes for abortion. If they aren’t elected in the first place, then the issue becomes a private and not a public one. When half of baptized Catholics vote for pro-abortion politicians- that is the fundamental problem.

 

[Faithdancer]

I guess the Pope and his con-celebrants didn’t know about the pro-abortion stances of Biden and Pelosi. Or perhaps they made confession just before Mass and promised to oppose abortion in the future as their act of penance?

 

[CarolNoel]

So the Bishops told Biden and Nancy P. to not receive the Eucharist, but they did anyway. Looks like they gave the flying bird to our faith. Shame on them

 

[wynnejj]

Where is the Catholic uproar? The “public” includes many who consider our Holy Communion to be nonsense. As Catholics, we believe in the Real Presence, even though we must concede that they would be right if it were not our belief in Jesus instituting the sacrament of Holy Eucharist.

This uproar should indeed entail disapproval of the demand side, but the real uproar should be about the supply side. Such public affirmation of secular values in the celebration of the Eucharist undermines all efforts for religious freedom. We want our rights to deny contraception in Catholic institutions, but refuse to exercise our duty to deny Holy Communion in our churches.

 

[Seeker1961]

So the Bishops told Biden and Nancy P. to not receive the Eucharist, but they did anyway. Looks like they gave the flying bird to our faith. Shame on them

But wasn’t it the duty of those clergy involved in the actual distribution to refuse them or bar them ? If someone unworthy approached, should they not have intervened so as not to allow them to “give the flying bird”?

 

[bellasbane]

So the Bishops told Biden and Nancy P. to not receive the Eucharist, but they did anyway. Looks like they gave the flying bird to our faith. Shame on them

Apart from the rhetoric, has any Bishop actually denied a politician communion during a Church service because of his or her pro-choice position? Just wondering.

 

[Blue_Goose]

I am a 66 YO fallen away Catholic who has been seriously looking into returning to the church. I left when I was 17 years old, became agnostic, and within the past five years overcame my agnosticism and my antipathy toward the Roman Catholic Church.

Just this morning I was going to make an appointment with a local priest to express my wish to return to the fold and to find out what I needed to do. I was baptized as an infant, received my first communion at age seven or eight, and was confirmed at age 13. I was very upbeat and looking forward to coming back. However, I was stopped in my tracks upon reading the news about Pelosi and Biden receiving communion at the Vatican. I could not believe that these two corrupt US politicians were not denied communion based on their support for abortion.

Consequently I did not make the call. I am not sure now if I ever will. To say that I am disappointed is an understatement.