Pope Francis on Gregorian chant

[OraLabora]

People seem to have the resources and effort to learn contemporary Christian music.

You didn’t answer my question.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Veni Creator Spiritus:

 

[IdaCatholic]

I’m willing to financially support and encourage quality music in my parish or any parish in the city I live in. Why?

 

[stpurl]

I can’t understand why people seem to think that Gregorian chant is something that is so complicated, so difficult, etc.

For more than 1000 years Gregorian chant had pride of place in Catholic Churches. Churches whose congregations were filled with peasants, serfs, people who had almost no education. . .yet they could sing chant.

Now suddenly here in the US, in parishes which often have the latest sound equipment, who periodically every couple of years or so pay high prices for the latest glossy missals, song inserts, for booklets and for speakers and for this, that, and the other campaign for the something or other, with people who are often at the least high school graduates, often college graduates up to Ph.D. level, with children whose schools even in the poorer districts give out free computers, computers with access to all kinds of You Tube tutorials and music files etc. etc.

Somehow the people of AD 2019 in the Catholic Churches in the West just can’t hack chant. It’s ‘beyond’ them. It takes too much work.

Well yeah. It’s as though you’re asking the parish of St. Elton whose unelected folk group has been there for 35 years singing the same songs with the same guy on the guitar to stop, and in place the very next week drag onto the altar anywhere from 15 to 20 men and women who have not been singing at all, throw them the most complicated chant modes available, and DEMAND that they now produce music 'just like that schola on You Tube".

You aren’t going to get that, and nobody expects that.

But if instead you canvassed your parish for people who had always enjoyed participating, if you spent the next year with them starting with simple basic chant, practicing Latin in fun ways, getting people interested, having the same kind of events you’d have with other parish ‘ministries’ to foster community spirit and pride, and then you had these people in the last 6 months of that year go out and work with some of their friends and help them in the same way, a year from now most of the people in the parish would have had some exposure–fun exposure–to chant, and Latin, and the history and the challenge and the ENJOYMENT–and when Father announced that starting the next Sunday one of the Masses was going to feature the Schola, asking for prayer, and everybody was all excited, you’d probably get a good crowd that following Sunday, and over the following year you’d get a schola that had developed into a respectable group who enjoyed chant, members of the congregation who were not only enjoying listening, but being able to hold their own and sing as well.

Common sense. . .it used to be more common.

 

[OraLabora]

Why?

Because it won’t happen by itself that’s why. I joined a Gregorian schola 17 years ago, learned chant even though I had zero musical notion (couldn’t even read normal music notation, let alone Gregorian notation), and have been actively singing with them in parishes for all that time; we cover multiple parishes in our city, singing at a different one, once a month. We are entirely volunteers.

I also chant the Liturgy of the Hours in Gregorian chant every day.

It didn’t happen by itself, it was a burning passion that had to be satisfied. Chant for me became like a bottle of vodka to an alcoholic. A lot of effort, and the help of a benevolent Benedictine monk and choirmaster who was able to put up with my mangled efforts until it “clicked” allowed to drink from that bottle.

The Vatican does not have a C-130 full of Gregorian paratroopers flying around the sky waiting to paradrop into a parish on request… it takes work. A lot of work.

We also endured a lot of slammed doors in our faces. We shook the dust from our sandals and moved on until we found sympathetic parishes.

Why did it all happen? Because someone (not me) in 1997 heard Gregorian chant recordings and thought it would be great if he could hear it in his community. He scoured the area for resources and found a sympathetic ear in the above choirmaster, found a rag-tag bunch of men of all backgrounds crazy enough to latch onto his idea, and the rest is history. We’ve been at it ever since.

 

[OraLabora]

I can’t understand why people seem to think that Gregorian chant is something that is so complicated, so difficult, etc.

It depends what you mean by Gregorian chant. The simpler Mass settings for the ordinary? Pretty easy, it’s true.

Long complex Graduals and Offertories? Not so much. Even melismatic Introits and communion antiphons, and alleluias, can be tough.

yet they could sing chant.

Simple chants only. The Propers were always pretty much in the hands of a trained schola or choir. Moreover in the EF Mass, only the servers chanted. Not the assembly.

 

[CTBcin]

For more than 1000 years Gregorian chant had pride of place in Catholic Churches. Churches whose congregations were filled with peasants, serfs, people who had almost no education. . .yet they could sing chant.

Not in every time or in every place though. At least in the US, before Vatican II, the state of music was pretty bad in the Church, and the low Mass reigned supreme. At least from the anthropological studies I’ve seen. The book Why Catholics Can’t Sing is a very enlightening read in this regard and I’d highly recommend it, especially for American Catholics.

 

[OraLabora]

Then YOU be the resource.

You like others are just waiting for someone else to take up the yoke. Don’t wait. DO it! If you’re so interested in chant, then get involved.

Yes it’s tough and like I said we had doors slammed in our faces. But we also had some open up, and some keen to give us a try.

Now why is it, in a place like Québec where the very liberal Church took to the “spirit of Vatican II” like a duck to water, there are scholas in Montreal, Québec City, and smaller cities like Sherbrooke (where I sing) or Chicoutimi? All singing in the Ordinary For exclusively?

It’s because people who were interested did something about it. And didn’t get discouraged. So let the folks interested in folk music do folk music. If you’re interested in chant, the DO chant!

Can’t find a church (yet) to welcome you? Then get together once a week or once a month and sing the Liturgy of the Hours together in Gregorian chant. PM me if you want help on musical resources for that. Invite other Catholics to, say, Sunday Vespers, even if you have to do it in someone’s home or a community centre. Check out the Church Music Association of America or the Gregorian Institute of Canada for help.

Seriously, and sorry for emphasizing this yet again, but Gregorian chant isn’t just going to fall out of the sky.

 

[OraLabora]

A suggestion that works for us: recitals. Chant is supposed to be liturgical, i realize, but recitals help get it at least known. We pick a faith-based theme, and sing. Local classical music societies have been helpful.

Also start easy. Make it a once a month or once per liturgical season treat. I don’t know your area, but we found parishes willing to have us once a year. It works out to once a month for our schola. We also do funerals (can’t deny the dead their last wishes!), parish fundraisers, Vespers during Advent and Lent.

We’ve been through what you have. New pastor comes along, and boom, you’re gone. Open hostility. Everything you experienced. It’s why we evolved into a roving troop, small doses seem to be better digested.

We had to persevere, and be creative. Yes we encountered hostility. Perhaps we just got lucky?

 

[OraLabora]

For more than 1000 years Gregorian chant had pride of place in Catholic Churches. Churches whose congregations were filled with peasants, serfs, people who had almost no education. . .yet they could sing chant.

This is not entirely true. Gregorian chant underwent a considerable decline to the point where, in the 19th century, it was only a caricature of the original. Gregorian chant was restored to pride of place in the mid- to late-19th Century by the monks of Solesmes, under the liturgical renewal movement. Dom Prosper Guéranger, first abbot of Solesmes after its restoration, is generally considered to be the father of the liturgical renewal movement.

The palaeographic studies of the monks of Solesmes led to a restoration of chant to, as much as possible, what was found in the original manuscripts which were written in neumes; the monks of Solesmes transcribed those, based on their studies, into the more easily interpreted square notes that are used for chant today. What we hear today isn’t Gregorian chant as it was originally, but Gregorian chant as the monks of Solesmes imagined it to be.

Moreover, 1000 years ago, other chant forms were still regionally active: Ambrosian, Sarum, Mozarabic. Some chant forms were dying out in that period, such as Old Roman or Gallican (on which much of Gregorian derived from). To this day Ambrosian continues in the Archdiocese of Milan (St. Paul VI’s diocese), as well as Mozarabic around Toledo, in Spain. Sarum chant was used in the UK until the Reformation. As well a couple of Ambrosian and Mozarabic pieces, or pieces inspired by them, are in the current Roman Gradual.

The restoration of Gregorian chant was given great impetus under St. Pius X; who promulgated the Vatican Edition of the Roman Gradual in 1908, which the current Roman Gradual is largely based on except for some newer compositions (e.g. for the feast of Christ the King). So it hasn’t really enjoyed pride of place until the 20th century.

As for the ease of prior generations chanting it before Vatican II, at sung and high Masses, the people would not have been chanting, Only the schola/choir (for the propers) and the servers for the responses/parts of the ordinary. Only at dialogue Masses did the assembly respond. And dialogue Masses were low Masses, not sung Masses.

I do agree with Gregorian being given pride of place, but that does not mean every place, every time. Monasteries do a good job of giving it pride of place as well as preserving it, as well in Rome itself.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Thank you for this (name removed by moderator). I understand where you are coming from. All situations are different and what works for one will not always work for another.

Everything you experienced. It’s why we evolved into a roving troop, small doses seem to be better digested.

Maybe that is the key to your success, your ability to be a roving troop. It is good that you and who is in your troop are able to do that.

 

[OraLabora]

Maybe that is the key to your success, your ability to be a roving troop. It is good that you and who is in your troop are able to do that.

No doubt. We found that saturating people eventually became antagonistic. By rotating around parishes, we are seen as a special occasion. Those who want chant more frequently often just come to the parish we happen to be at. We call them our groupies

We are also fortunate to have an abbey nearby where we have found support and training resources. Having a monk who was the foremost Canadian expert on chant (RIP) lead us didn’t hurt either. He passed away last year after a long decline into Alzheimer’s alas. We’ve been lay-led for years now. We have a couple of oblates and a tertiary Franciscan among us as well.

I think if we want to introduce Gregorian chant, we need to tread gently to avoid making people feel insecure or confronted.

 

[pnewton]

At the risk of restarting the weekly Liturgy wars on CAF, I will argue that music is not a mere personal taste. The Pope said himself that not all music is appropriate for the Liturgy and we should not use “just any old music.

I think you are correct, but would say that just because music is not merely personal taste, there is most definitely personal taste in liturgical music.

I would look as to why Gregorian chant is the model. I am of the opinion that some hymns, and even praise music, follow the model of Gregorian chant more closely than some chant. Namely, music should be simple enough for all people to sing. I am think particularly of the simplicity of Jubilate Dei, and the Pater Noster, which most have a melody that can be picked up after a few times, if not the words. On the other hand, in English, they are pretty easy.

I think if we want to introduce Gregorian chant, we need to tread gently to avoid making people feel insecure or confronted.

We started several years back using chant for a Mass setting during Lent. It was not my decision, but I wonder if the idea was that those who didn’t like it could see it as a Lenten sacrifice. I had no problem implementing it though. In fact, it is the easiest music of the year now.

 

[Kullervo]

I love Byzantine chants, but as the western I think Church we should prefer Gregorian chants in liturgy.

 

[Diaconia]

Gregorian chant, well-done, is heavenly.

It should enjoy preference over other music in the Liturgy.

Individual parishes have great disparities in the musical talent they possess, as we know.

Most people can learn simple chant, and should be encouraged.

Deacon Christopher

 

[IdaCatholic]

I’ll go one further, Gregorian Chant even when not well done is better that most well done contemporary Christian Rock at Mass.

 

[OraLabora]

No, not well done it is simply painful. I have experienced it. I’m no fan of Christian rock though, and I’d rather a quiet spoken Mass to any Mass with bad music. There is, however, some decent non-Gregorian liturgical music out there, at least in my language (French).

Perhaps instead we could borrow a tune or two from the Anglican Ordinariate…

 

[pnewton]

I prefer almost any music done right to music done poorly, that is off pitch, messed up, and hard to follow. Personally, because of my background, hymns from the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries are my favorites.

 

[Peeps]

Mostly from lack of resources: i.e. people willing to put the effort into learning chant and performing it in a language they probably don’t know very well, if at all. Have you done something about that in your parish?

Thank you for saying this.

Hopefully those who are advocating something different than what their parish is doing/singing now are willing to put their money, time, and talent, and lots of prayer (lots!) into fixing what they see as deficient.

If they are putting money, time, and talent and lots of prayer into their passion for fixing the liturgical music in their parish, and the authorities that God Himself has established are still resistant, then perhaps it would be wise to step back and accept their situation, and also to do a searching study on whether they are truly in possession of all the truth about liturgical music. (I hope I have said that in a kind way.) Could it be possible that the Lord sees beyond the liturgical music and knows exactly what His people in that area of the world need to become saints?

One thing I have learned over the years is that often, His timing is not our timing, and we can save ourselves a lot of grief and frustration if we simply wait on the Lord instead of trying like scouts to make things happen the way we think they should be happening.

 

[twf]

The East manages chant across the board. The poorest, smallest, most isolated parish will always have a fully chanted liturgy… to worship without chant is beyond the pale in the East. Doesn’t exist. No concept of a low Mass.

My Orthodox relatives hosted a Divine Liturgy in their home (in a small town without an Orthodox parish). My cousin was called on to chant the epistle as there was no ordained lector or sub-deacon present. He had never chanted… before the liturgy he had to learn on the spot how to chant the entire epistle because simply reading it would be unthinkable, even in a “home” liturgy with a handful of people.