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sarah_j
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Cardinal Sarah’s words of clarity are music to my ears.I was starting to wonder if speaking clearly had become a lost art to the
Church hierarchy.
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Cardinal Sarah’s words of clarity are music to my ears.I was starting to wonder if speaking clearly had become a lost art to the
Church hierarchy.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
3 threads on this same topic merged here.
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St_Francis
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Wow, they merged really well!
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DavidFilmer
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And, I have some knowledge about how vBulletin works, and this was not a trivial endeavour on behalf of our tireless Moderator.
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djames99
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He’s in conflict of interest, and has no say in this regard.
This error is rooted in not seeing conversion as a personal endeavor. We need to convert individuals, not en masse entities who claim to share one dogma. In fact, this truth bears out through interviews of Lutherans who show they are not united in dogma. That alone tells us we need to approach evengelization on a personal level.
My Catholic mother was raised in strict Catholic principles. Our family obeyed the Church to the letter. The Church insisted that every child was disposed and properly prepared for that day when they would receive the Eucharist. This was an enormous responsibility for her at great cost in effort, and she trusted the Church to the letter.
And what of her belief that a person requires absolution through penance to receive communion in the case of capital sin? This was passed down as unalterable De Fide dogma. Now he is saying he no longer cares for the state of that lady’s soul as a prerequisite for reception…
The Pope has no business imposing his non infallible Sententia Pia by allowing some corner cutting and under the table shenanigans.
We all desire the ecumenical mandate to move along faster, but these policies toss to the wind the efforts of generations of the Faithful who tried to remain so. It also shows the protestants that corners can be cut for their benefit, liberties which are not available to the Catholic.
The fact of the matter is the Lutherans are simply not ready, and they need to get rid of some baggage before they are qualified.
This error is rooted in not seeing conversion as a personal endeavor. We need to convert individuals, not en masse entities who claim to share one dogma. In fact, this truth bears out through interviews of Lutherans who show they are not united in dogma. That alone tells us we need to approach evengelization on a personal level.
My Catholic mother was raised in strict Catholic principles. Our family obeyed the Church to the letter. The Church insisted that every child was disposed and properly prepared for that day when they would receive the Eucharist. This was an enormous responsibility for her at great cost in effort, and she trusted the Church to the letter.
And what of her belief that a person requires absolution through penance to receive communion in the case of capital sin? This was passed down as unalterable De Fide dogma. Now he is saying he no longer cares for the state of that lady’s soul as a prerequisite for reception…
The Pope has no business imposing his non infallible Sententia Pia by allowing some corner cutting and under the table shenanigans.
We all desire the ecumenical mandate to move along faster, but these policies toss to the wind the efforts of generations of the Faithful who tried to remain so. It also shows the protestants that corners can be cut for their benefit, liberties which are not available to the Catholic.
The fact of the matter is the Lutherans are simply not ready, and they need to get rid of some baggage before they are qualified.
Which is the crux of the matter…think about it. If their own communion was sufficient why want the Eucharist from the Catholic Church?
Most everyone knows that we have never practiced intercommunion or open communion and with good reason.
However, errant belief does not mitigate the fact and the clear norms of the Church, David,
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I don’t think it is a question of sufficiency of our Eucharist for this woman, or for other Lutherans. Ours is sufficient, valid, the true body and blood of Christ. She, and I suspect her husband, want to be able to receive together. It is a significant issue in places of strong Cathic and Lutheran membership, particularly in Europe.
Confessional Lutheran synods practice close or closed communion as well
Jon
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Michael_Francis
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A curious, almost angry response by Cardinal Robert Sarah, at least in the toe one picks up only from reading. Profanation. Remarkable.
Probably most curious was what is missing. Unless I overlooked it, not a mention of concern for the welfare of the hypothetical non-Catholic recipient ( For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. ) 1 Corinthians 11
Jon
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Genesis315
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He quotes that in the full interview.A curious, almost angry response by Cardinal Robert Sarah, at least in the toe one picks up only from reading. Profanation. Remarkable.
Probably most curious was what is missing. Unless I overlooked it, not a mention of concern for the welfare of the hypothetical non-Catholic recipient ( For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. ) 1 Corinthians 11
Jon
aleteia.org/2015/11/30/cardinal-sarah-and-bishop-schneider-respond-to-pope-francis-comments-on-intercommunion/
Thanks for sharing this. This sounds more like the current Catholic Church stance, even though I find the profanation comment a bit obnoxious.
I agree that Eucharistic hospitality should be in keeping with doctrinal unity.
Jon
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Genesis315
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The profanation part and the eating condemnation part are two sides of the same coin. To receive unworthily leads to condemnation because it is a sacrilege, which the Church defines as “profaning” the sacraments.
CCC 2120 Sacrilege consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us.52
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CrossofChrist
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Why is it even allowed for non-Catholics to receive the Eucharist from the Catholic Church, albeit in rare circumstances? Wouldn’t it first be necessary for them to at least anticipate becoming Catholic? I think that’s what the rare circumstances assume, since for instance the CCC says they must hold the Catholic faith concerning the sacraments (and Lumen Fidei 48 says “Precisely because all the articles of faith are interconnected, to deny one of them, even of those that seem least important, is tantamount to distorting the whole.”).
So can someone tell me if my understanding is correct?
So can someone tell me if my understanding is correct?
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SAVINGRACE
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I’ve never heard of Priests/EMs giving the Eucharist “knowingly” to a non-Catholic apart from visiting/touristing Orthodox parishioners and that’s only because we don’t have any Orthodox Churches in our regional town. The local Orthodoxians drive 2-3hours to attend the nearest Church.
When you take the Eucharist you are essentially saying you agree with all the Church Teachings.
When you take the Eucharist you are essentially saying you agree with all the Church Teachings.
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CrossofChrist
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See but the Orthodox aren’t in full communion with the Catholic Church, so I don’t understand why they would be able to receive.
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Fauken
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Well, I’m a Catechumen. I’m not Catholic, but I’m on the way of becoming one. I’m attending all my RCIA classes. But I get really hurt/sick and am expected to die. I may not be Catholic, but in this instance, I don’t think a Priest would refuse giving me communion (probably along with the other sacraments, but you get the point).
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MiserableSinner
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A requirement of receiving Holy Communion is agreeing with the doctrine (ALL OF IT) that the Holy Spirit gave us in His Church. If someone does not, they are a heretic and can not receive. However, there are 2 kinds of heretics. Those who know they are heretics and those who don’t know.
Those who are in the Church and don’t know that they believe a heresy are NOT guilty of mortal sin and do not commit sacrilege by receiving. They are truly ignorant! Ignorant sin is never mortal. Those who are in the Church AND are guilty of willful heresy commit an even worse sin - sacrilege - if they receive. This is not an uncommon sin from what I understand. Also, from my understanding, it is worse than murder.
(those who believe the Church Herself is heretical, such as Protestants, are another group of themselves - they are heretics but they might not know it in a different sense than I am talking about here. There are people who are in the Church and know they disagree with the Church’s teaching on X Y or Z - those are heretics who know they are heretics. And “disagree” does not mean they don’t understand/don’t feel like they agree. I don’t understand and don’t FEEL like I agree with 1 specific teaching and you would be surprised what it is because it is not commonly objected to. BUT I KNOW IT IS MY FLESH THAT FEELS THAT WAY. Heresy is a work of the flesh. So this is a temptation for me to commit heresy and NOT a WILLFUL heresy. Temptations are NOT sins. Satan always tries to get us to think they are! It is like if someone feels like they lusted. They didn’t lust unless they fully committed their WILL to lusting. Seeing a pretty female who is dressed immodestly and feeling like lusting is not the same as lusting. If you looked away and prayed, you didn’t lust! Even if your flesh disobeys your will, you didn’t lust. ALL MERIT LIES IN THE WILL. If you apply your WILL to what the Spirit wants, as opposed to your flesh, you are walking in the Spirit and gaining MERIT with All-Powerful God who is Love. Persevere in prayer during temptation. God will provide an escape. He said He would in His Word and He does. It is normally perseverance in prayer.)
----- This part is JUST MY UNDERSTANDING. I make mistakes all the time. Maybe it will help or maybe someone smarter than me will tell me how I am wrong -----
Anyways, point is - someone who does not submit to God’s One True Church can not receive under normal circumstances. That is certain. Here is what I have trouble understanding but I will take a shot at it! — It appears that God will have great mercy on one who is dying and in some circumstances they may receive, even if they believe heresy. Remember - heresy is always grave but it is not always mortal. 3 conditions must be met for mortal sin, but I am sure you hear that enough in RCIA that I don’t need to go over it. I will anyways. 1. grave matter 2. full knowledge 3. deliberate consent of the will. If their heresy is a mortal sin, as in they know they are committing heresy, it is sacrilege to receive. Most protestants do not know they are committing heresy or schism, from what I understand.
That is my understanding, everyone, and I am prone to error.
I really don’t understand how someone, even a Greek Orthodox, could receive Holy Communion without a full conversion. I know the provision is there, but what I am not certain of is whether or not they must profess belief in the Catholic Church and all her Doctrines and Dogma or not before they receive it.
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Fauken
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I see there’s been a miscommunication.
When I said I am not Catholic, I mean as a Catechumen, I have not been baptized or confirmed in the Catholic Church. I am making steps to remedy this by going through RCIA, and I have participated in the Rite of Welcoming (where I announced to the Church my intentions of receiving the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and First Comminion, and in turn was welcomed and acknowledged by the Church), but I am still not quite considered Catholic. This is not a matter of lack of belief–I simply can’t participate under normal circumstances. But in extreme ones, where I am dying, and have told the Church long before hand of my intention to convert, I doubt a Priest would deny me Communion. Why would he?
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MiserableSinner
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If you were dying, you would be baptized and receive communion right away. NO you would not be denied. If you were to die without baptism, you would have a baptism of desire from what I understand (you would not be exempted from the Beatific Vision based on having to wait for baptism. Regardless, God has the keys to life and death).
Anyways, I understood your post. I know why you can’t receive Holy Communion yet. I was just trying to help in general. You might have already known the things I was saying, but the topic was important enough that going over it again wouldn’t hurt.
Satan is going to try to draw you away from God. Remember - both good and bad angels can do 3 main things. They can give us thoughts, feelings, and they can use what is already in our brains to give us imaginations (things we have seen and heard). God’s angels obviously use the good to help us and give us Holy thoughts and Holy feelings (feelings of humility and reverence and peace). God’s Angels help our spirit. Bad angels attack our flesh and tempt us. Remember that you have to deny yourself. The Spirit and the flesh want things that are opposite. Most of the spiritual warfare shouldn’t start for you for a while though, at least until after your baptism. God will give you many special graces that you are unaware of until then.
I salute you. I love you
I salute all the Angels who are helping you. I love you all
Mother please ask God to help. I love you.
Jesus I trust in you. I love you.
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runningdude
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The Eucharist was not established with a divided Church in mind. At the altar of every Catholic and Orthodox Church is the same Christ.
The Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Churches as valid institutions. Orthodox members are lawfully bound to the canons set by their Bishop. The Pope’s universal jurisdiction allows him to unilaterally recognize the Orthodox, even if they do not reciprocate. The Pope can waive any impediments to Orthodox Members receiving in a Catholic Church, though he asks that Orthodox respect their church’s customs.
Thus, it is not a matter of the Catholic Church allowing “non-Catholics” into communion; it is about the Universal Church welcoming all members, even those in an imperfect union with her earthly head, the Pope, to the table.
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