Pope Francis received Bp. Fellay, SSPX Superior General

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Almost all of which you mentioned in your previous post either didn’t exist at one time or another, or was something that was a change from something previous to it. Too many people presume that what happened at Mass in the 1950’s was what the Mas looked like back to the time of Christ - it wasn’t.

And a number of your statements are inaccurate; for example, incense was not used at every Mass; it was used infrequently (and I grew up in the 1950’s, so I was there). And your comments about minor exorcisms needs some factual backup that “things are not working”. And please, don’t go off the reservation with issues that have no bearing on the matter.

I periodically attend Mass at our Trappist abbey and they use far more incense than my pastor did in the 50’s.
I’m not trying to ruffle feathers or raise anyones hair I’m just trying to learn more about Catholicism…My Dad is Catholic but we didn’t go to church as a kid and he basically just taught me the basics like how to pray the bible mothet mary etcetera. I started going on traditionalist Catholic websites a few years ago and that’s what attracted me to Catholicism don’t get me wrong I’m still into Catholicism but those traditionalist Catholic websites helped me to convert to the Catholic Church and go to RCIA and get confirmed. I converted to Christianity when I was 18 in the assemblies of God church then was baptized at 19 years old and then I was baptized in the holy spirit then I stopped going to church because I went to college then I started going on traditionalist Catholic websites and that’s what was part of getting me to convert to the Catholic Church I always knew the Catholic Church was the true Christian church but it took me awhile to convert. It just seems like most Catholics these days don’t care about the brown scapular or even the divine mercy or other sacramentals it’s just disappointing.
 
I don’t understand why people give traditonalist Catholics a hard time…I consider myself a traditional Catholic even though I go to the Novus Ordo mass but I agree and believe most of the stuff the traditionalists believe in. The church these days disregards alot of the good and amazing things about Catholicism and makes it closer to Protestantism in my opinion.
For the most part, it’s not traditionalists as a whole who get the hard time, but that subset of them that illicitly ordain priests and consecrate bishops. The FSSP, for example, is generally highly thought of. (Resisting the urge to go off on a rant about that protestant comment.)

That said, I do hope the SSPX can get their issue resolved, and if they truly are meeting with Pope Francis and making progress that’s good. However, reading their reaction to Pope Benedict’s overtures has left me somewhat… cynical. But hopefully this cynicism will prove unfounded, or its source will be cured.
 
I don’t understand why people give traditonalist Catholics a hard time…I consider myself a traditional Catholic even though I go to the Novus Ordo mass but I agree and believe most of the stuff the traditionalists believe in. The church these days disregards alot of the good and amazing things about Catholicism and makes it closer to Protestantism in my opinion.
Well the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ crowd is still around old they may be and traditional Catholics represent the enemy of the change that they envisioned…women priests, inclusive liturgy, allowance of contrcepion, etc. Much like protestants they looked to separate Jesus from His Church.
 
Totally agree with you. I’m also a traditionalist, and I think the real change should be to go back to our roots and learn about who we are.
If this does happen it will certainly help in that regard and also add to an already increasing interest in the TLM.
 
Ok anyway back to the topic at hand…
Ok, so to start a discussion a little more on topic:

If this rumor was true, and Francis offered the SSPX “unilateral recognition by tolerance”, with no strings attached, they would accept, right?
 
I’m not trying to ruffle feathers or raise anyones hair I’m just trying to learn more about Catholicism…My Dad is Catholic but we didn’t go to church as a kid and he basically just taught me the basics like how to pray the bible mothet mary etcetera. I started going on traditionalist Catholic websites a few years ago and that’s what attracted me to Catholicism don’t get me wrong I’m still into Catholicism but those traditionalist Catholic websites helped me to convert to the Catholic Church and go to RCIA and get confirmed. I converted to Christianity when I was 18 in the assemblies of God church then was baptized at 19 years old and then I was baptized in the holy spirit then I stopped going to church because I went to college then I started going on traditionalist Catholic websites and that’s what was part of getting me to convert to the Catholic Church I always knew the Catholic Church was the true Christian church but it took me awhile to convert. It just seems like most Catholics these days don’t care about the brown scapular or even the divine mercy or other sacramentals it’s just disappointing.
Actually, it is surprising how well Divine Mercy has caught on.

Keep in mind that the Church is a bit wider than your experience of it. We have a Catholic radio station in Oregon - going on 25 years; and I have no idea how long Divine Mercy Chaplet has been said in it, but it is broadcasting across Oregon.

The Brown Scapular is a pious private personal devotion, There is absolutely nothing wrong with it in any way, shape or form. But it is hardly intrinsic to the Faith, and if it’s popularity falls off, that is not necessarily a major issue. There are other personal devotions. My favorite is an hour of Adoration; my parish has had 24/7 adoration for over 15 years running.
 
Well the ‘spirit of Vatican II’ crowd is still around old they may be and traditional Catholics represent the enemy of the change that they envisioned…women priests, inclusive liturgy, allowance of contrcepion, etc. Much like protestants they looked to separate Jesus from His Church.
They are, however, dying off, and the younger crowd is simply not joining them. 'their influence has been restricted solely to the secular media.
 
Actually, it is surprising how well Divine Mercy has caught on.

Keep in mind that the Church is a bit wider than your experience of it. We have a Catholic radio station in Oregon - going on 25 years; and I have no idea how long Divine Mercy Chaplet has been said in it, but it is broadcasting across Oregon.

The Brown Scapular is a pious private personal devotion, There is absolutely nothing wrong with it in any way, shape or form. But it is hardly intrinsic to the Faith, and if it’s popularity falls off, that is not necessarily a major issue. There are other personal devotions. My favorite is an hour of Adoration; my parish has had 24/7 adoration for over 15 years running.
Right. Popular devotions like sacramentals are actually typically popular among the ordinary faithful. The ones who have erroneously pooh-poohed it tend to be those removed from the hoi-polloi.
 
Actually, it is surprising how well Divine Mercy has caught on.

Keep in mind that the Church is a bit wider than your experience of it. We have a Catholic radio station in Oregon - going on 25 years; and I have no idea how long Divine Mercy Chaplet has been said in it, but it is broadcasting across Oregon.
Must be the Polish influence. I know of one independent chapel where a Polish priest used it extensively throughout most of the year.
 
Ok, so to start a discussion a little more on topic:

If this rumor was true, and Francis offered the SSPX “unilateral recognition by tolerance”, with no strings attached, they would accept, right?
I have no idea, but I hope they will. At least Bishop Williamson thinks they will.
 
Ok, so to start a discussion a little more on topic:

If this rumor was true, and Francis offered the SSPX “unilateral recognition by tolerance”, with no strings attached, they would accept, right?
This Pope has surprised people but I don’t see how it could happen.

They cannot say that the ordinary form is invalid and that the Second Vatican Council taught errors.

Then there is the whole question of how they will fit into the structure of the Church. Societies of Apostolic Life must submit to the bishop in matters of public worship and celebration of the sacraments. That is going to be a problem for the SSPX in diocese for example, where the Bishop asks all priests to concelebrate the Chrism Mass. Some structure within the Church must be raised for them - prelature or otherwise.

At the end of the day the Bishop can’t have what are effectively two parallel Churches operating in his geographical area, one which celebrates the OF and another which says it is invalid, one which accepts Vatican II and one which does not.

I don’t see how everyone can just agree to disagree.

-Tim-
 
Ok, so to start a discussion a little more on topic:

If this rumor was true, and Francis offered the SSPX “unilateral recognition by tolerance”, with no strings attached, they would accept, right?
A long look back to their beginnings would not be grounds for a lot of hopefulness. There has been splintering at least on several occasions, and from what has been noted in threads herein, one is left wondering of the three bishops remaining, who has what opinion. I don’t have an inside track, but there have been implications that the two remaining bishops are more conservative (that is, lees likely to reunite) than Bishop Fellay; but that is largely conjecture. They tend to keep to themselves, and what comes out to the public at times appears to be somewhat contradictory, leaving one to feel that they are not of one mind. They started with four bishops, and Bishop Williamson was ousted. I don’t know their ages nor any idea of their health, but given they are spread out through Europe, and North and South America, there comes a point where they will need to ordain more bishops if for not other reason than health/death/geographical spread. And that comes to a point, not to be too crude, where the rubber meets the road. The first go-round of ordinations resulted in excommunications; any presumption that another round would not do likewise would take some serious 'splainin, to quote Desi Arnez.

There was a thread some time back that indicated that the SSPX (possibly their website?) had called this Pope a modernist. While I have my doubts that missive made it to Francis’ desktop, I have a hard time believing that the Pope is simply going to give them a pass, after Benedict said “this is the requirement” and was quite specific. That is not to say that Benedict could bind Francis; but Francis seems to be consulting with Benedict more than on just a rare occasion. And while Francis has made it a point to shake up and reorganize the dicasteries, neither has he gone in to eliminate them.

This isn’t like some spat that flared up a couple of years ago and was more about personalities than substance; it goes back to Pay VI. Francis is now the 5th Pope to have this problem to deal with. For those who are still within the Church but are anywhere from somewhat to greatly sympathetic with the SSPX position, much agitation can be expected, which will result in many rumors. They would love to see the SSPX come into the official fold with all of the baggage they carry, as it would strengthen the objections the sympathizers make.

Time will tell. Meanwhile, if I want to look good in blue, I will change my shirt, not hold my breath.

But to answer your question, it really appears that some within the SSPX do not want reconciliation. How many only they know, and they are not talking.
 
This Pope has surprised people but I don’t see how it could happen.

They cannot say that the ordinary form is invalid and that the Second Vatican Council taught errors.

Then there is the whole question of how they will fit into the structure of the Church. Societies of Apostolic Life must submit to the bishop in matters of public worship and celebration of the sacraments. That is going to be a problem for the SSPX in diocese for example, where the Bishop asks all priests to concelebrate the Chrism Mass. Some structure within the Church must be raised for them - prelature or otherwise.

At the end of the day the Bishop can’t have what are effectively two parallel Churches operating in his geographical area, one which celebrates the OF and another which says it is invalid, one which accepts Vatican II and one which does not.

I don’t see how everyone can just agree to disagree.

-Tim-
All speculation. One can only compare them right now to the FSSP or Institute priests for that matter, with their own bishops to boot. A lot will have to do with their benefactors the way I see it.
 
Right. Popular devotions like sacramentals are actually typically popular among the ordinary faithful. The ones who have erroneously pooh-poohed it tend to be those removed from the hoi-polloi.
In some circumstances that may be correct. On the other hand, there often is an impression that “everyone did it” and that was not true before Vatican 2; not true now, and won’t be true in the future.

It is a bit like 3rd orders; they have never amounted to a large number of people; that does not make a statement of either their worth or their availability.

And keep in mind that those removed from the hoi polloi are small in number, and they never have accessed all, or even most. Some things just wax and wane on their own. Perpetual Adoration in the 20th century was questions as to whether laity should be involved; it built gradually, and has taken off during the reign of JP2. If there is anything the cognoscenti might pooh pooh, it would be that, and yet it grows.
 
Must be the Polish influence. I know of one independent chapel where a Polish priest used it extensively throughout most of the year.
Well, I don’t know how many Poles we have out here (one parish in Portland), but it seems fairly widely noted out here.
 
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