Pope Francis restricts celebration of EF Mass by Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate

[ProVobis]

The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist remains available to the community in question.

Which is precisely why a restriction of any rite or form should be a concern to you.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Perhaps someone should start another religious community with the EF as a distinct part of its charism. That way no one could say, “It isn’t what we were founded on and I don’t like it, ergo, we must get rid of it.” That way, the EF would not just be the de facto norm, but the de iure norm for that community, and anyone who complains about it could be told, “But you knew that when you entered, right?”

 

[corsair]

Its my understanding that the Dominicans can (with the approval of their Provincial Superior) say the Dominican Rite when they want to. But as a general rule they adopted the OF as their “default” form right after Vat II.

I do think Rich C has a great opinion and I am in the same boat as to anger. Just read St. Francis De Sales bit on anger. Makes you really understand some of what the Apostles went through.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Perhaps someone should start another religious community with the EF as a distinct part of its charism. That way no one could say, “It isn’t what we were founded on and I don’t like it, ergo, we must get rid of it.” That way, the EF would not just be the de facto norm, but the de iure norm for that community, and anyone who complains about it could be told, “But you knew that when you entered, right?”

I will say it again, joining an order should not be about what type of Mass is celebrated, it should be about aligning one’s self with the charism of the order. What form the Mass is celebrated in should be irrelevant.

 

[Brendan]

I stand corrected. Really, I am a dumb ox when it comes to religious orders. Or apparitions for that matter. I am a nuts and bolts kind of guy.

Don’t be too sure I am right, I’m not sure myself It is just my limited knowledge on how the Franciscan Order(s) work.

I’m hoping that Br. JR might chime in and provide some more definitive information.

 

[malphono]

Its my understanding that the Dominicans can (with the approval of their Provincial Superior) say the Dominican Rite when they want to. But as a general rule they adopted the OF as their “default” form right after Vat II.

Yes, those are the terms of the Rescript for public or conventual use. However, in light of Summorum Pontificum, as clarified in Universae Ecclesiae, any OP may do it privately.

 

[OraLabora]

True and sad. The order is inspirational.

It’s hard to say. I’m told repeatedly by the monks at our abbey, that it’s the quality of the vocations that matter. They see their “success” as it were, in the survival of the community, not its numbers. Yes they are worried about declining numbers of vocations, but they’d rather have 1 genuine vocation than 10 poorly discerned vocations. The latter can even be cancerous to a community and threaten its survival by sowing conflict. It could very well be the case here, with the “core” group being truer to the charism. But we’ll never know for sure as its a “family” conflict, not a public one, which is why people shouldn’t think this as an EF vs OF battle that is somehow representative of the pope’s intentions wrt the EF in general.

 

[Rich_C]

I will say it again, joining an order should not be about what type of Mass is celebrated, it should be about aligning one’s self with the charism of the order. What form the Mass is celebrated in should be irrelevant.

In effect, what you are saying is that Catholics who join religious orders should only have the OF, is it not?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I will say it again, joining an order should not be about what type of Mass is celebrated, it should be about aligning one’s self with the charism of the order. What form the Mass is celebrated in should be irrelevant.

So, more clearly, why can’t the EF be part of the charism of a religious group? Why is “charism” suddenly, in this conversation, restricted to things like piety and when you wake up in the morning, but the external and public way we worship God can’t be part of that?

To be clear, I am not saying the EF is part of the “official” charism of the FFI. But just in this point, all I am objecting to is the idea that the EF cannot be part of the charism of any religious group that might wish to come into existence.

 

[Brendan]

I will say it again, joining an order should not be about what type of Mass is celebrated, it should be about aligning one’s self with the charism of the order. What form the Mass is celebrated in should be irrelevant.

Sort of, a particular form of the Mass might be part of the charism of a religious institute or of the vision of their founder.

It would be a mistake to join the FSSP, for example, without having a love for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and a desire to celebrate it almost exclusively.

 

[sw85]

Perhaps someone should start another religious community with the EF as a distinct part of its charism. That way no one could say, “It isn’t what we were founded on and I don’t like it, ergo, we must get rid of it.” That way, the EF would not just be the de facto norm, but the de iure norm for that community, and anyone who complains about it could be told, “But you knew that when you entered, right?”

I don’t like this. The implication would not be lost on anyone that the EF is incompatible with any other charism.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I don’t like this. The implication would not be lost on anyone that the EF is incompatible with any other charism.

Yeah, I understand your concern. That could become a tendency. However, I am not so sure this would be the reality, although I claim no rights to predict the future. The EF does not limit itself to this or that kind of charism. It can fit into Franciscan and Carmelite and Dominican (yes I know the latter two have their own EFs) spirituality equally well, it seems.

The EF in itself is not a charism as such. That would be like saying, “The Rosary is my charism.” A charism is a collection of things, not just one thing. The EF can be part of a charism.

 

[Rich_C]

I will say it again, joining an order should not be about what type of Mass is celebrated, it should be about aligning one’s self with the charism of the order. What form the Mass is celebrated in should be irrelevant.

How do Eastern-rite Fransican orders figure into your view? It is silly that they exist since there were already Roman-rite Fransican orders they could have joined?

 

[Julia_Mae]

I think it’s sad that someone’s dislike of the EF started this mess.
.

What’s sadder is someone posting this with no evidence whatsoever that it is true and dismissing the Church in the person of the Pope as someone without enough sense or intelligence or faith to have made his decisions based on the truly relevant factors instead of a lot of unfounded gossip.

Creating a scandal, or trying to, is a sin. You might want to rethink your behavior.

 

[malphono]

So, more clearly, why can’t the EF be part of the charism of a religious group? Why is “charism” suddenly, in this conversation, restricted to things like piety and when you wake up in the morning, but the external and public way we worship God can’t be part of that?

To be clear, I am not saying the EF is part of the “official” charism of the FFI. But just in this point, all I am objecting to is the idea that the EF cannot be part of the charism of any religious group that might wish to come into existence.

It seems that it can be. I believe this is true of Fontgombault and it’s newly-raised daughter abbey at Clear Creek, for example. And I think it is also now true of Mariawald. But of course those are all abbeys sui jruis. OTOH, it would seem to me that there should be no reason why it wouldn’t be possible to do something similar in an “active” congregation.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It seems that it can be. I believe this is true of Fontgombault and it’s newly-raised daughter abbey at Clear Creek, for example. And I think it is also now true of Mariawald. But of course those are all abbey sui jruis. OTOH, it would seem to me that there should be no reason why it wouldn’t be possible to do something similar in an “active” congregation.

Is the implication here that since we have the FSSP and ICRSS–not religious, however–that we don’t need any others? Or no?

 

[Rich_C]

What’s sadder is someone posting this with no evidence whatsoever that it is true and dismissing the Church in the person of the Pope as someone without enough sense or intelligence or faith to have made his decisions based on the truly relevant factors instead of a lot of unfounded gossip.

Creating a scandal, or trying to, is a sin. You might want to rethink your behavior.

I apologize if anything I said crossed a line. I do not normally comment on anything the holy father does. I wanted to express my sadness over the distress this will cause the people who are directly affected. I’ve since gotten worked up, but I don’t think any of my frustration was directed at Holy Mother Church.

 

[Lormar]

There is something that I have witnessed time and again the last forty plus years.

Let me preface what I am going to ask by saying that I do not mean to ask my question in a disrespectful manner nor am I looking to start an argument.

Why is it that it seems to be that only things like this happen to religious orders that want to hold onto Tradition? Why is it that an overly liberal superior who is doing harm to the community and/or running the religious order into the ground doesn’t suffer the same fate?

Again - this is a question that I would sincerely like an honest answer to. I am not asking it to cause any trouble.

 

[Cristiano]

I apologize if anything I said crossed a line. I do not normally comment on anything the holy father does. I wanted to express my sadness over the distress this will cause the people who are directly affected. I’ve since gotten worked up, but I don’t think any of my frustration was directed at Holy Mother Church.

This papal directive has nothing to do with the laity, it is just a problem for a Franciscan group that needs to align with all the other Franciscans. I do not understand why laity wants to have a say into the life or religious people, not even the local bishops have that right. If a Franciscan is distressed by that directive then he better work on his spiritual growth, I can understand disappointment, but distress makes me think that the person is more focused on a form of liturgy than on the Franciscan rule. Claiming that the Franciscans will loose vocations because of that is like saying that Franciscans will loose vocation because they want to wear a belt exactly like the Dominicans.

 

[Boulder257]

There is something that I have witnessed time and again the last forty plus years.

Let me preface what I am going to ask by saying that I do not mean to ask my question in a disrespectful manner nor am I looking to start an argument.

Why is it that it seems to be that only things like this happen to religious orders that want to hold onto Tradition? Why is it that an overly liberal superior who is doing harm to the community and/or running the religious order into the ground doesn’t suffer the same fate?

Again - this is a question that I would sincerely like an honest answer to. I am not asking it to cause any trouble.

I don’t think that is the case. Isn’t the Vatican coming down pretty hard on the LCWR?