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giuseppeTO
Guest
Using your logic, Islam is also a denomination of the Jewish religion but I wouldn’t float that balloon (even with a smiley face on it) at any Mosque or Synagogue if I were you.
Pope Francis' speaks out on the disruption of Kristallnacht event by Traditionalist Catholics in Argentina
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giuseppeTO
Guest
Too late Vic, its already happened.
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OldYoungGuy
Guest
Does anyone here actually know what actually happened there. Where exactly are these accusations of them yelling out “Christ killer” coming from. I found one video of it here [SSPX disrupts service in Buenos Aires cathedral commemorating Kristallnacht – gloria.tv] but I can’t really make out what is going on. The scene is chaotic and I don’t speak Spanish well enough to make out anything through all the other noise.
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OldYoungGuy
Guest
Can you give a reference please? The Church’s mission is the salvation of souls. Have you forgotten John 14:6? Isn’t baptism still necessary for salvation? Somehow the Jewish religion is exempt from these and is no concern of ours?
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onenow1
Guest
Much like Luthernism is from Catholism. Maybe I should’nt have used the word denomination? Sect probably would have been better. Nevertheless,denomination means the act of naming: As on Pentecost there were about three thousand were added to the number of believers.Acts 2: 41,The Catholicism is a denomination of Judaism? This is news to me.
As Catholics we must believe the Church Jesus instituted is in truth the Catholic Church.
Matthew 5
18 For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz2lKEX01nJ
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Lormar
Guest
Sect?!! That’s even worse.
There is only one true Church - the Catholic Church - it is neither a denomination nor is it a sect.
There are many denominations. Catholicism is not one of them.
And there are many sects. She is not a sect either.
Perhaps you should read Dominus Jesus. Check for it at the Vatican website.
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vames
Guest
A clearer video:
lanacion.com.ar/1637924-video-asi-fue-la-irrupcion-de-un-grupo-ultraconservador-en-la-catedral
The guy with the red cap who took the microphone says: “Profanations of the sacred temple offend God… before the Nazarene, before the Crucified One… go away and let this profanation end! It’s not possible! Pray the Rosary and honor God!” And then someone says to the guys who shout the rosary: “Miserable Nazis!”
To understand the context - there are Argentinean ezines, blogs and Facebook groups where “Traditionalist Catholics” praise the SSPX guys for “cleansing the temple of moneychangers and descendants of those who crucified Jesus” and speaking of such nice things: “the Novus Ordo of the Crypto-Jew Montini”… “hidden in the Eucharist, our Savior had to suffer the offense of seeing his church invaded by the triumphant descendants of his assassins, assisted by the descendants of Judas the Iscariot”… “Judeo-Christians who adulate Judaism”… “Poli-semia” (Mario Poli is the name of the local archbishop)… the Argentinean bishops as “servants of Caiaphas” and the Pope as “Judas B”… “the Zionist capitalism, the Judaic oligarchy and the Hebrew plutocratic monopolies”… “the Judeo-Modernist armies who want to destroy everything that is Catholic”… Enough examples?
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onenow1
Guest
Indeed ! if you read even some excerps of the Koran,I think you will be able to get a connection to Judiasm and Christianity,conjured up around the 7th and 8th,9th centuries.
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TimothyH
Guest
old.usccb.org/liturgy/guidelinesjudaism.shtml. See point number 6.
The fact is that the Church is speaking out more and more against proselytizing - aggressive conversion attempts - targeted at groups of Jews or individual Jews. Cardinal Walter Kasper, Pope Benedict XVI, Pope Francis have all spoken out against it.
Proselytizing is not the same as evangelization. The latter is an invitation held out to all. The former is a targeting of individuals or groups for conversion.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
This mindset is absolutely fascinating to me.
Jesus’ last act on the cross was obedience to the Law of Moses as he gave up his birthright to John.
There was a clear nexus of Temple Judaism, what would later be known as Rabbinical Judaism, and Christianity in the first century. Peter prayed in the Temple, going up at the holiest time, when incense were offered at 3:00 PM. The Apostles taught in the Temple. The Temple remained the focus of life for Jewish Christians until its destruction in 70AD. Paul made offerings in the temple and took a Nazarite vow. Christians were daily praying the central prayer of Judaism - the Shema Yisrael - until well into the third century.
The dearth of knowledge about basic historical fact and the utter inability to comprehend the most basic functioning of the Church as clearly written in the Bible are mind boggling to me.
I really want to ask these people if they have ever opened a Bible and read it.
-Tim-
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Desertsilver
Guest
Is it known if Christ ever prayed the Shema?
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vames
Guest
Fascinating, indeed, but after a while becomes kind of frightening. Everything that they say must contain a NO!! On the Facebook wall of one such group: the Divine Mercy devotion has to be avoided; JPII must not be canonized; Extra ecclesiam nulla salus; the Pope left the sheep for the love of the wolf (with a photo of some Jewish leaders); a normal story about Cardinal Tauran praising the interreligious dialogue (English version here) is “impiety and apostasy”; another story about the Kristallnacht incidents has a comment about “the synagogue of Satan” and “the accursed Conciliar Church”. How can one spend so much time and energy obsessing about more and more ways to be against, to reject, to accuse? And all in the name of Jesus?
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RPRPsych
Guest
I agree that it is frightening.
They seem to want a combination of a rigid, authoritarian, semi-Catholic faith with the sort of government that World War II ought to have cured us of.
They may claim to be doing this in the name of Jesus, but their actions give them the lie.
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TimothyH
Guest
As you probably know, the Shema Yisrael is Dueteronomy 6:4-9, with special emphasis on verses 4 and 5. For those who might not know…
***Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. *(Deuteronomy 6:4-5)
Shema Yisrael means Hear, O Israel in Hebrew. This prayer is said to have contained a condensed version of the entire Torah. It contains every commandment (mitzvah) of the law. This was the central prayer of Judaism. Every faithful Jew would pray this prayer as he started his morning and evening prayers. Every Jew was to have these words on their lips as they went out and came in, in their rising up and going to sleep, as their dying breath.
Jesus says that the Shema is the greatest commandment of the Law.
**And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” Jesus answered, “The first is,
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'** The second is this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any question. (Mark 12:28-34)The scribes would laters become known as Rabbis later in Judaism.
When asked what the greatest commandment is, Jesus - himself a faithful Jew - reached reached back into the Torah and drew out the central prayer of Judaism. Then he adds the commandment which is like it - to love our neighbors as ourselves, and states that these are the two greatest commandments of God.
As Jesus was a devout Jew, I am sure that he would have prayed the Shema. And all Christians should realize that the first of the two greatest commandments - you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might - in the form of the Shema, is at its heart a Jewish commandment and a Jewish prayer.
That is what amazes me about these people who disrupted prayer service in the Cathedral. They claim to love God with all their heart, mind and strength but want to drive Jews out of the Cathedral. They don’t even understand however, that the central command of their religion given to them by their savior is Jewish in origin!
youtube.com/watch?v=KFMHywBewzI if you want to hear it the way Jesus would have prayed it, though he may have had a heavy Aramaic accent.
-Tim-
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RedCaves
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I think the protesters were perfectly justified in their anger at a borderline sacrilegious ceremony.
What I do question is whether or not it was prudent of them to do it inside the Cathedral.
It definitely attracted the wrong people, like real anti-semites. Apparently, the man in the red cap may have been a Carlist or a Falangist but not necessarily a Traditionalist Catholic.
Had the group prayed peacefully outside the Cathedral, I think the situation would have been less severe.
Instead, it gave religious indifferentists and modernists in the Church one more hammer for which to use against the Society and Traditional Catholicism, in general.
Sad how the Church cares more about non-Catholics than Her own children, to the point where doctrine/dogma appears to be compromised.
What I do question is whether or not it was prudent of them to do it inside the Cathedral.
It definitely attracted the wrong people, like real anti-semites. Apparently, the man in the red cap may have been a Carlist or a Falangist but not necessarily a Traditionalist Catholic.
Had the group prayed peacefully outside the Cathedral, I think the situation would have been less severe.
Instead, it gave religious indifferentists and modernists in the Church one more hammer for which to use against the Society and Traditional Catholicism, in general.
Sad how the Church cares more about non-Catholics than Her own children, to the point where doctrine/dogma appears to be compromised.
meltzerboy
New member
I wonder about the last statement. Do you really believe the Church cares less about “Her own children”? I would think the universality of the Church means that she cares about all mankind.
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RedCaves
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The Church does care about all of humankind. The only reason She exists is to save souls. That is Her purpose. Nothing less of that is possible.
How She behaves with non-Catholics is very important to know and I definitely don’t belittle that.
There is a fine line between showing respect and tolerance towards those not catholic and telling them on the one hand, they must convert so that they can be saved, and on the other hand, you don’t need to as long as you have been a good person.
You would be confused by such an offer!
For quite awhile since the mid-20th Century, The Church (hopefully accidentally) has been a bit…schizophrenic in what she really teaches and believes. I’m supposed to argue that the Church has always believed in unchanging doctines/dogmas but I am often caught off-guard when I read people’s comments on the issue when they say, “Oh, the Church has changed/abandoned some doctrines and they should do more.”
Sometimes, I wonder, what does the Church really believe? Just say it! Forget what people say. All I want is honesty and no ambiguous answers.
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RPRPsych
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:crying:
Could we please have a moratorium on misusing the term “schizophrenic” in that manner?
The Church is not “a bit schizophrenic”, any more than a man can be “a bit pregnant”.
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choliks
Guest
I think this is the heart of your problem. The Church is clear about her teachings and beliefs; She was never a schizophrenic. To suggest that implies that Christ did not fulfill His promise to His bride, the Church. It’s the people that muddied the waters with their opinions and biases. Do what you have stated: “forget what people say.” Listen to the Church.The Church does care about all of humankind. The only reason She exists is to save souls. That is Her purpose. Nothing less of that is possible.
How She behaves with non-Catholics is very important to know and I definitely don’t belittle that.
There is a fine line between showing respect and tolerance towards those not catholic and telling them on the one hand, they must convert so that they can be saved, and on the other hand, you don’t need to as long as you have been a good person.
You would be confused by such an offer!
For quite awhile since the mid-20th Century, The Church (hopefully accidentally) has been a bit…schizophrenic in what she really teaches and believes. I’m supposed to argue that the Church has always believed in unchanging doctines/dogmas but I am often caught off-guard when I read people’s comments on the issue when they say, “Oh, the Church has changed/abandoned some doctrines and they should do more.”
Sometimes, I wonder, what does the Church really believe? Just say it! Forget what people say. All I want is honesty and no ambiguous answers.
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JReducation
Guest
I’m going to have back Tim H on this. This is not news.
Here are some important details on this matter.
One:
St. Francis of Assisi and the Sultan at Dalmietta agreed that the Muslims would open the shrines in Jerusalem to the European Christians for pilgrimage and devotion while the Franciscans would protect the Muslims from proselytism. Until recent history, the friars always had safe passage through Egypt.
The Franciscans had a very stable foot in the Holy Land and for 800 years have never done any form of proselytizing to Jews, Muslims or Orthodox in the region. In fact, the Holy See separated Palestine from the rest of the world by declaring it a custody of the Franciscan Order. This way only Catholic missionaries approved by the superior of the Franciscans, known as the Custodian, could approach the Jews. The Custody exists to this day. The custodian continues to be a Franciscan Friar who will have your head and get you deported out of Israel, if you try to preach to Jews or Muslims.
This arrangement was approved by Pope Gregory IX. It has withstood the test of time to this day, with the exception of some isolated pockets in Europe such as certain parts of Spain. Through the centuries, there have been numerous letters and statements on this subject by different popes.
Two:
There exists a great schism between laymen and clergy and between laymen and religious. As sad as it is to admit, I don’t think that it will close anytime soon. In fact, I see opening wider. There is definitely a disdain that many laymen have toward the old religious orders, to the point that laymen can’t tell the difference between an order and a congregation, between a mission and ministry, and between proselytism and evangelization. I believe that this blur is a byproduct of a laity that refuses to trust the clergy and religious and priests who are far from humble. As a result, religious who are not priests get caught in the middle and are unable to carry out their mission of educating the laity. Many laymen have joined what I call the *“Magisterium of the Laity.” *
As a result of this Magisterium of the Laity, one finds laymen on sites like this, hammering away at the notion that Catholics must convert everyone under the sun. Obviously, if there is little or no interaction between orthodox religious, clergy and laity, there is a* “gulf of meaning”* in the use of language. Two words that are lost in that gulf of meaning are proselytism and evangelization.
The Church received from Christ a mission or commission, to proclaim the Gospel or to evangelize. She never received a commission to convert anyone. Conversions come from grace, not through words or force. A true conversion is an acceptance of the grace of faith. This particular grace is given to people in different ways, at different times and in different doses. At the end of time all will meet at one point, which is Christ. But we’re nowhere near there as Pope Benedict said in his interview in Light of the World. The Church cannot impose faith, nor can she handcuff God.
Three:
There are many ways to Evangelize. Today, we have a problem and it’s mostly found among Catholics who are former Protestants. These Catholics often don’t have a shared meaning of proselytism and evangelization with the Church. They often use both terms interchangeably. They’re not the same. They have very different meanings. As Pope Francis has said, we (religious and clergy) have always believed that proselytism is a negative. Pope Francis calls it nonsense. I like negative bettter.
I’ve never been Protestant, but I have been Catholic for over 40 years and a Franciscan. This is an area in which Dominicans, Franciscans and Jesuits excel. We have been “master missionaries” if you will. We have made many mistakes, but we have done many things right too.
One thing that we have done fairly well has been living the Gospel in the midst of Jews and Muslims while maintaining very fraternal relations with them . . . most of the time. I have to add that too, because we have had some missionaries who hurt instead of help the proclamation of the Gospel. This presence is evangelization without proselytism. It’s a presence that invites, but does not coerce or intimidate.
Four:
The Church has always supported an open presence among Jews and Muslims. She still calls for this today. In fact, this week, Pope Francis met with the Patriarchs of the East. His message was very simple. “You can’t have an East without Christians.” Christianity was born in the East.
Pope John Paul and Cardinal Ratzinger did a lot of work with and wrote many letters to Jewish leaders inviting them to dialog with a promise that we (Catholics) were not setting them up to preach to them. There were copies of these letters sent to religious superiors and to bishops in areas where the Jewish population is large.
The result has been very positive. The Jewish leadership and the Catholic hierarchy have very good relations. The laity needs to take its cue from the Holy See. The Holy See is going to adapt to the times and place. We no longer live in a Catholic Europe. It is unrealistic for the Holy See to view Catholicism as the commanding force in the world, because it is not. The Holy See views Catholicism for what it is. It’s a faith community that invites especially sinners.
One of the best places to find information on how Jews come into Catholicism is through the Association of Hebrew Catholics of which I am a member.
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