Pope Francis' speaks out on the disruption of Kristallnacht event by Traditionalist Catholics in Argentina

[janeway529]

From the Jewish Daily Forward:

Pope Francis Blasts Disruption of Kristallnacht Event by Catholic Extremists in Argentina

Pope Francis, reacting to the disruption of a recent interfaith Kristallnacht memorial, told Latin American religious leaders visiting the Vatican that “aggression cannot be an act of faith.”
“Preaching intolerance is a form of militancy that must be overcome,” Francis told the delegation on Tuesday.

More: forward.com/articles/187931/pope-francis-blasts-disruption-of-kristallnacht-ev/

 

[Thomas_Casey]

MODERATOR NOTICE

I carved this post from another thread. Posters may add information and comments related to the Holy Father’s statement.

DO NOT make statements contrary to what the Holy Father has said. That is not allowed on TC Forum, because it is Catholic tradition and custom to submit to the Holy Father’s judgments on ecclesial matters.

Feel free to add more information on this subject.

 

[GloriaMaria]

Anti-Semitism is part of the culture of the SSPX. The Jews are considered along with the Masons, Liberals, and Communists to be one of the groups that has ruined the Church in a conspiratorial, plotted sort of way. You should have heard the uproar about the Good Friday prayer changes (which were not changed in the SSPX).

On Traditionalist forums I have not read a post where this event was denounced, only applauded. If someone has seen otherwise, I will be surprised. The overwhelming sentiment that I observed was that fellow Trads thought this was a couragous act by the SSPX in Argentina, and that the church was being desecrated by having the prayer service. They feel they were being good Christian Soldiers.

Anyway, my point being, that this is very much a cultural identifier in the SSPX. If I were still in the SSPX, and did not agree with this act, I would know to keep my mouth shut around the priests and other parishoners.

Cowardly, but true.

 

[RPRPsych]

Anti-Semitism is part of the culture of the SSPX.

While I cordially dislike the SSPX, I think this is a little harsh on them.

The actions of a few shouldn’t serve to tar the many with the same brush.

Moreover, I think the SSPX’s real “beef” (if I may play Devil’s Advocate for a moment) is not so much with the Jews or Judaism, but with some developments in Church teaching and practice that they see as reflecting indifferentism or “Judaizing”. Of course, most of us would disagree with them, but that’s where they’re coming from. I don’t think they want to see the Jews tortured or killed; rather, they want less ecumenism and more conversions of Jews.

 

[JReducation]

I’m belief that there is a right way and a wrong way to disagree. When you use the wrong way, you void your disagreement, because you’ve raised the bar. People need to stop and think. In no public setting are protesters allowed to be disruptive without consequences. Try this behavior in the senate or parliament.

No other faith community puts up with this. When I was growing up as Jewish kid, there were the Zionists. They could be very vocal and ugly at times. I can’t remember a single synagogue that did not have them arrested when they chose to disrupt. It was not an issue of faith. It was an issue of rights. Those who went to temple for a specific purpose approved by the rabbi, had a right to do whatever they were there to do. No one, but the rabbi, had the right to disrupt them or harass them.

Now that the Holy Father has spoken on the matter, I assume that good Catholics will accept that this was not an act of faith and it’s not justifiable and understandable. Are “good Catholics” going to give the SSPX a higher vote of confidence than we give to the Bishop of Rome?

 

[JReducation]

While I cordially dislike the SSPX, I think this is a little harsh on them.

The actions of a few shouldn’t serve to tar the many with the same brush.

Moreover, I think the SSPX’s real “beef” (if I may play Devil’s Advocate for a moment) is not so much with the Jews or Judaism, but with some developments in Church teaching and practice that they see as reflecting indifferentism or “Judaizing”. Of course, most of us would disagree with them, but that’s where they’re coming from. I don’t think they want to see the Jews tortured or killed; rather, they want less ecumenism and more conversions of Jews.

What they want is to see Judaism disappear. In their little brains, this will happen if the Catholic Church goes out on a campaign to convert the Jews.

There are some problems with this line of thinking.

We (Jews) are sick and tired of being bullied. When the Christian bible or the Catechism of Trent is shoved in our faces, not out of love, but as a way to eradicate us from this planet, we lock our breaks. No one likes shotgun weddings, especially the bride and groom. Evangelization must be like a courtship, not a shotgun wedding.

They also look at us as if we were the enemy. I fail to see what we have done to them to be seen as such. In Argentina, for instance, our people make up the largest non Catholic minority in a predominantly Catholic country. Outside of the SSPX, we live in peace with our neighbors. Our kids go to the same schools, we visit each other, we work in the same places and when someone is in need we come to each other’s assistance, be he Catholic or Jew. The SSPXers may see a Jew in need and the first thing out of their mouth would be proselytism rather than, “How can I help you?”

This little stunt was pulled off by a small group of SSPX friends. I understand this. What makes this egregious in my mind is when a Catholic priest makes a public defense and justifies this behavior as did the the SSPX superior in Argentina. Bishop Fellay’s silence does not make us feel comfortable.

When the priest gives this kind of behavior his blessing and the bishop remains silent, it sends a message out to other like minded people. They have created a state of apprehension and vigilance among our people. Today it’s a group of 20 and tomorrow it can be 200. Why should anyone else of like mind restrain himself, if the authorities in the SSPX do not denounce this kind of nonsense?

Everyone seems to be going out of their way to explain the SSPX’s feelings and then cap it by saying, “I don’t agree with them, but this is how they feel.”

OK, let’s try this shoe for size. “I don’t agree with the killing of Christians in the Middle East. I don’t believe that a baby is part of a woman’s body either. But this is how Muslims feel about Christians and this is how people feel about babies in utero. Let me try to help everyone understand so that no one gets angry at these folks.”

Such analysis tends to minimize the inappropriateness of the behavior rather than correct it.

 

[RPRPsych]

What they want is to see Judaism disappear. In their little brains, this will happen if the Catholic Church goes out on a campaign to convert the Jews.

This is so quotable that I’m tempted to have it as my signature.

There are some problems with this line of thinking.

We (Jews) are sick and tired of being bullied. When the Christian bible or the Catechism of Trent is shoved in our faces, not out of love, but as a way to eradicate us from this planet, we lock our breaks. No one likes shotgun weddings, especially the bride and groom. Evangelization must be like a courtship, not a shotgun wedding.

They also look at us as if we were the enemy. I fail to see what we have done to them to be seen as such. In Argentina, for instance, our people make up the largest non Catholic minority in a predominantly Catholic country. Outside of the SSPX, we live in peace with our neighbors. Our kids go to the same schools, we visit each other, we work in the same places and when someone is in need we come to each other’s assistance, be he Catholic or Jew. The SSPXers may see a Jew in need and the first thing out of their mouth would be proselytism rather than, “How can I help you?”

This little stunt was pulled off by a small group of SSPX friends. I understand this. What makes this egregious in my mind is when a Catholic priest makes a public defense and justifies this behavior as did the the SSPX superior in Argentina. Bishop Fellay’s silence does not make us feel comfortable.

I agree fully with this. The good Bishop could have at least censured his erring sheep.

When the priest gives this kind of behavior his blessing and the bishop remains silent, it sends a message out to other like minded people. They have created a state of apprehension and vigilance among our people. Today it’s a group of 20 and tomorrow it can be 200. Why should anyone else of like mind restrain himself, if the authorities in the SSPX do not denounce this kind of nonsense?

Everyone seems to be going out of their way to explain the SSPX’s feelings and then cap it by saying, “I don’t agree with them, but this is how they feel.”

My apologies if I came across as doing this. In my case, it’s an example of what psychologists would call reaction formation: every time I read of something like this (or visit Rorate Caeli, which I’ve stopped doing now that I’m a family man and have other responsibilities!) I feel like delivering a verbal smackdown to the SSPX and their ilk. Then I feel that it would be uncharitable, and try to empathize - but end up sounding like an apologist. Psychology is a tricky thing.

OK, let’s try this shoe for size. “I don’t agree with the killing of Christians in the Middle East. I don’t believe that a baby is part of a woman’s body either. But this is how Muslims feel about Christians and this is how people feel about babies in utero. Let me try to help everyone understand so that no one gets angry at these folks.”

I stand humbly corrected on this issue.

Such analysis tends to minimize the inappropriateness of the behavior rather than correct it.

 

[meltzerboy]

What they want is to see Judaism disappear. In their little brains, this will happen if the Catholic Church goes out on a campaign to convert the Jews.

There are some problems with this line of thinking.

We (Jews) are sick and tired of being bullied. When the Christian bible or the Catechism of Trent is shoved in our faces, not out of love, but as a way to eradicate us from this planet, we lock our breaks. No one likes shotgun weddings, especially the bride and groom. Evangelization must be like a courtship, not a shotgun wedding.

They also look at us as if we were the enemy. I fail to see what we have done to them to be seen as such. In Argentina, for instance, our people make up the largest non Catholic minority in a predominantly Catholic country. Outside of the SSPX, we live in peace with our neighbors. Our kids go to the same schools, we visit each other, we work in the same places and when someone is in need we come to each other’s assistance, be he Catholic or Jew. The SSPXers may see a Jew in need and the first thing out of their mouth would be proselytism rather than, “How can I help you?”

This little stunt was pulled off by a small group of SSPX friends. I understand this. What makes this egregious in my mind is when a Catholic priest makes a public defense and justifies this behavior as did the the SSPX superior in Argentina. Bishop Fellay’s silence does not make us feel comfortable.

When the priest gives this kind of behavior his blessing and the bishop remains silent, it sends a message out to other like minded people. They have created a state of apprehension and vigilance among our people. Today it’s a group of 20 and tomorrow it can be 200. Why should anyone else of like mind restrain himself, if the authorities in the SSPX do not denounce this kind of nonsense?

Everyone seems to be going out of their way to explain the SSPX’s feelings and then cap it by saying, “I don’t agree with them, but this is how they feel.”

OK, let’s try this shoe for size. “I don’t agree with the killing of Christians in the Middle East. I don’t believe that a baby is part of a woman’s body either. But this is how Muslims feel about Christians and this is how people feel about babies in utero. Let me try to help everyone understand so that no one gets angry at these folks.”

Such analysis tends to minimize the inappropriateness of the behavior rather than correct it.

Very well stated, JREducation!

 

[Elizabeth502]

They also look at us as if we were the enemy…

And they are so wrong in this. Talk about not being able to see who the true enemies of the Church, and of God, actually are.

Jews are not a threat to the Church, or even to Christianity in general. The Church has sufficient actual enemies inside it and outside it, working by commission and omission to carve away at Truth and what is continuous about Tradition.

Antisemitism is a form of persecution, and persecution is unholy. I refuse to associate with that particular aspect of traditionalism. It is also a blind spot among many traditionalist Catholics: they do not see how incompatible it is with Godliness (virtue), with a pure heart, with the Gospels, with the lives of the Saints, and with the person of Jesus Himself.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

While I cordially dislike the SSPX, I think this is a little harsh on them.

The actions of a few shouldn’t serve to tar the many with the same brush.

Moreover, I think the SSPX’s real “beef” (if I may play Devil’s Advocate for a moment) is not so much with the Jews or Judaism, but with some developments in Church teaching and practice that they see as reflecting indifferentism or “Judaizing”. Of course, most of us would disagree with them, but that’s where they’re coming from. I don’t think they want to see the Jews tortured or killed; rather, they want less ecumenism and more conversions of Jews.

There are other examples that make me question this. Take many Evangelical Protestants: many of them make no bones about wishing to convert any and all to Christ, the Jews emphatically included. “Indifferentist” or blindly ecumenical they’re not. Yet they’re not widely considered anti-Semitic–if anything, they’re often seen as sympathetic to the Jews and Judaism, though their desire to convert puts them somewhat at cross-purposes. If the SSPX is viewed so differently, then there’s something more going on.

 

[benjohnson]

We Lutherans are rather (in)famous for not tolerating inter-faith services - so I can understand the premise the SSPX has given for the protest. I understand why this service would annoy people as there’s prohibitions all over the place in the Bible against such things - but sometimes you have to respond to where the Holy Spirit is leading you to ignore the Law for just a moment and reach out to your neighbor and meet them on their level.

But frankly, my opinion is that the premise given for the protest isn’t the entire reason - the protest seems more angry than a protest given out of love for Christ Jesus should have been.

Christians are called to be kind, humble, loving, and generous to our neighbors and even our enemies - I didn’t see that at all in this protest. I saw venom, and now that I thinking on it, these people need our prayers.

Frankly, that the Catholic church invited the Jewish neighbors to step inside a cathedral in mutual love for God the Father (we can have that debate elsewhere) is to be commended even by this stubborn and cranky Lutheran.

 

[RPRPsych]

There are other examples that make me question this. Take many Evangelical Protestants: many of them make no bones about wishing to convert any and all to Christ, the Jews emphatically included. “Indifferentist” or blindly ecumenical they’re not. Yet they’re not widely considered anti-Semitic–if anything, they’re often seen as sympathetic to the Jews and Judaism, though their desire to convert puts them somewhat at cross-purposes. If the SSPX is viewed so differently, then there’s something more going on.

Some Evangelical Protestants do fit this description.

But others, especially the premillennial crowd, adopt a rather contradictory position; they are friendly to “the Jews” and Israel because of their eschatology, but have no bones about pointing out that individual Jews are heading straight to Hell.

I do agree, however, that as a whole, Evangelical Protestants avoid the verbal and behavioural excesses of the SSPX.

 

[Magnanimous]

We (Jews) are sick and tired of being bullied. When the Christian bible or the Catechism of Trent is shoved in our faces, not out of love, but as a way to eradicate us from this planet, we lock our breaks. No one likes shotgun weddings, especially the bride and groom. Evangelization must be like a courtship, not a shotgun wedding.

They also look at us as if we were the enemy.

Wait what? How can you be a Franciscan Brother and not Catholic at the same time?

 

[RPRPsych]

Wait what? How can you be a Franciscan Brother and not Catholic at the same time?

I think Brother J.R. is referring to the Jewish people (he was born and raised Jewish) and, by extension, to those Catholics whose views do not coincide with those of the SSPX.

 

[TheDoctor]

Wait what? How can you be a Franciscan Brother and not Catholic at the same time?

I believe Brother was born a Jew and later converted to the Catholic faith. This gives him a unique perspective from “both sides” of the aisle, but his scholarship and teachings are rock solid Catholic (and we are blessed for having him on the forums).

 

[HollyDolly]

opcorn:As a catholic I think they are nuts.But maybe that’s because my grandmother was a lutheran who converted,my mom’s mother was a hungarian presbyterian, her father was hungarian Byzantine rite ,(eastern rite of catholic church) and my brother in law is a jew.
My brother in laws family doesn’t seem to have any problem with us being half german on our dad’s side,and Ross’s sister is married to a polish catholic and lives in Chicago.
Of course there will be differences ,but we do share somethings in common,and they seem to forget that Jesus and the Holy Apostles were jews. In fact, there is or was a feast day in the Church in honor of the Maccabees.
The light burning in front of the altar to signify God is present in the tabernacle comes from the story about the miracle of Hannukah and the oil. You of course know the story,and we took the custom from you.
These people are so isolated,they have apparently no dealing with others,certainly not jews.
My dad for example could speak Yiddish,went to school with kids of all faiths and knew alot about jewish culture, even though he was a catholic.
Instead of worrying about the rabbi helping lead a prayer service,they would do much better to go out and walk the streets,visit people in their homes and spread the catholic faith.Protestants more and more keep gaining converts amongst hispanics both here and in mexico,Central and South America.They offer aid and assistance, and try to reach these people by talking about Jesus and what he preached.They don’t seem to offer them alot of dogma etc.
A simple message for simple people.Many don’t have a lot of education,and have little interest in the harrange that goes on between catholics on theological matters.
Now this might sound off track,but it’s not.
Of course jews would be tired of all the harrassment they get from such groups after it going on for centuries,though the evangelicals also want to convert Jews, but are far more sutle about it.
Judisim will never disappear,but the catholic church may with much more of such actions.
Its that sort of attitude which is why many leave the church and become a protestant or not even that,just don’t bother going to church.

 

[M1Garand]

I find it strange that this has turned into a discussion of antisemitism But I guess I am evil and side with the SSPX because I too want Jews converted to Jesus Christ who they reject and in some cases hate. If wanting our Jewish brethren to join the fold makes me antisemitic then I wear that label with honor.

I am not part of the SSPX but I also do not reject all that they stand for either. I agree that modernism has infected the Church over the last 60 years and we have seen the result of that. I also find the Church’s statements regarding Judaism and Islam in Lumen Gentium disturbing.

 

[giuseppeTO]

I wouldn’t expect any of the SSPX-bashers on this thread to even begin to understand what might have been at the core of this unruly and improper dissent. To paint the SSPX as anti-Semitic is, to use BroJR’s words, small-minded. To give you some perspective on what you may not comprehend, I cannot count the times where I have been on pilgrimages to Holy Shrines in the U.S. where the shrine operators physically block entrance to the shrine to prevent any of the SSPX pilgrims from entering to pray while nobody else was at these sites - no Jews were involved.

This disruption of an ecumenical service or gathering , while certainly not justified, is not about Jews. You will not ever understand what it is really about, especially if you believe it is about the eradication of Jews or the Jewish faith.

 

[JustaServant]

I find it strange that this has turned into a discussion of antisemitism But I guess I am evil and side with the SSPX because I too want Jews converted to Jesus Christ who they reject and in some cases hate. If wanting our Jewish brethren to join the fold makes me antisemitic then I wear that label with honor.

I am not part of the SSPX but I also do not reject all that they stand for either. I agree that modernism has infected the Church over the last 60 years and we have seen the result of that. I also find the Church’s statements regarding Judaism and Islam in Lumen Gentium disturbing.

Then you are in opposition to our Pope.

 

[RPRPsych]

Not sure whether to or just :crying:

If you disagree with a specific line in Lumen Gentium, take it up with the Holy Father or the Bishops - not with Jews who are remembering one of the biggest man-made tragedies in human history.

If you feel the Church is “infected with Modernism”, there are plenty of other “churches” that also claim to have the truth. I hear “Pope Michael” could use a few followers.

St. Paul very clearly stated what our view of the Jewish people ought to be in Romans 11. We have fallen away from that standard many times. That is not a cause for pride, which St. Augustine called the greatest of all sins.