Pope Francis to change laws on celibacy and divorce?

[Lily_Bernans]

I agree absolutely that celibacy is not the reason for the lack of vocations. It is indeed the inspiration of the family, or lack of it and a slowly decaying culture. However, I believe that there are enough good men who will take up the challenge, hard as it is, because Jesus will not let his vineyards become overgrown.

I agree with you. Jesus will not allow his sheep to live without reliable shepherds. He has promised us that.

 

[RyanBlack]

One can’t be married and be a priest and do both jobs well.

You state this as if it were objective truth, but it isn’t. Many Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would strongly disagree, and unlike you, they would do so on the basis of actual experience with married priests. Whether or not one a married priest can serve both his parish and his family well likely depends on several things, such as his own personal strengths and weaknesses, the degree of support of his wife, the size of the parish he serves, the support of parishioners, etc.

If you’re looking at a scenario in which you have a large parish served by a married priest with young children, and he is the only priest serving that parish, then it would be very difficult for him to serve both the parish and his family well. Some people use this scenario as the basis for the claim that one can’t do both jobs well, as if every priest is the lone priest serving a large parish. However, not every parish is large, not every large parish is served by only one priest, not every married priest has young children, and so on.

 

[RyanBlack]

If they marry AFTER they made the promise to their bishop to remain celibate, then I DO think they should leave the Church, be laicized, not be able to perform the duties of a priest because you know they have been fooling around with women, to put it nicely.

If a priest marries, he can only do so validly after having been laicized, and having received a dispensation from the Holy See. However, why would you say that he should leave the Church? The Church herself would never ask such a thing.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

If a priest marries, he can only do so validly after having been laicized, and having received a dispensation from the Holy See. However, why would you say that he should leave the Church? The Church herself would never ask such a thing.

It’s just the way I feel because he is still a priest. I would never disrespect a laicized priest personally. I believe when God calls men to the priesthood he calls them to be priests forever. If he didn’t, holy orders would not leave an ontological mark.

I said a priest who wants to marry should perhaps check out the Anglican Church since they allow married priests. I know some Catholic priests who left to marry and are now priests in the Anglican Church.

I, myself, don’t believe a laicized priest’s marriage can ever be valid, despite the dispensation from the Holy See, because of the ontological mark of holy orders, but I accept that they can marry when the Church says they can, and I would never disrespect such a couple. I imagine they, like me, are doing their best and make mistakes and learn along the way.

I come from an ultra-religious family that contains many priests and nuns, and among my ancestors, two archbishops of Strasbourg, so that, in part, accounts for my very strict and conservative beliefs. Despite that, I try to show charity to all because I think most are trying, and being charitable is the right thing to do. (That came off kind of arrogant, but I didn’t mean ti to be; it was offered as explanatory only. I don’t think I’m better than anyone else.)

 

[Lily_Bernans]

You state this as if it were objective truth, but it isn’t. Many Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox would strongly disagree, and unlike you, they would do so on the basis of actual experience with married priests. Whether or not one a married priest can serve both his parish and his family well likely depends on several things, such as his own personal strengths and weaknesses, the degree of support of his wife, the size of the parish he serves, the support of parishioners, etc.

If you’re looking at a scenario in which you have a large parish served by a married priest with young children, and he is the only priest serving that parish, then it would be very difficult for him to serve both the parish and his family well. Some people use this scenario as the basis for the claim that one can’t do both jobs well, as if every priest is the lone priest serving a large parish. However, not every parish is large, not every large parish is served by only one priest, not every married priest has young children, and so on.

Yes, that’s true. I would not have too much of a problem with a married priest if his children were grown. Older men, who have fewer responsibilities, would probably make good priests, and I don’t object to widowers becoming priests at all.

The Eastern Churches don’t object because it has always been that way for them. It hasn’t been the tradition in the Roman Church.

 

[RyanBlack]

Yes, that’s true. I would not have too much of a problem with a married priest if his children were grown. Older men, who have fewer responsibilities, would probably make good priests, and I don’t object to widowers becoming priests at all.

The Eastern Churches don’t object because it has always been that way for them. It hasn’t been the tradition in the Roman Church.

Well, it hasn’t been tradition in the Roman Church for several centuries. The Roman Church once had married priests as well (for several centuries).

 

[RyanBlack]

It’s just the way I feel because he is still a priest. I would never disrespect a laicized priest personally. I believe when God calls men to the priesthood he calls them to be priests forever. If he didn’t, holy orders would not leave an ontological mark.

I said a priest who wants to marry should perhaps check out the Anglican Church since they allow married priests. I know some Catholic priests who left to marry and are now priests in the Anglican Church.

I, myself, don’t believe a laicized priest’s marriage can ever be valid, despite the dispensation from the Holy See, because of the ontological mark of holy orders, but I accept that they can marry when the Church says they can, and I would never disrespect such a couple. I imagine they, like me, are doing their best and make mistakes and learn along the way.

I presume that priests who have been laicized and bother to seek a papal dispensation from canon law in order to validly marry have no interest in leaving the Church or remaining in a ministerial role (or at least it is more important to them to remain in the Catholic Church than to remain in a ministerial role). On the other hand, a Catholic priest who is determined to marry and continue serving publicly as a minister has no choice but to leave the Catholic Church. However, I can’t understand suggesting that a priest should do that.

As far as Holy Orders and marriage, the ontological character of Holy Orders and the sacramental character of marriage are not mutually exclusive conditions–otherwise, the Church would never ordain married men. Holy Orders is a canonical impediment, not an absolute, ontological impediment.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I presume that priests who have been laicized and bother to seek a papal dispensation from canon law in order to validly marry have no interest in leaving the Church or remaining in a ministerial role (or at least it is more important to them to remain in the Catholic Church than to remain in a ministerial role). On the other hand, a Catholic priest who is determined to marry and continue serving publicly as a minister has no choice but to leave the Catholic Church. However, I can’t understand suggesting that a priest should do that.

As far as Holy Orders and marriage, the ontological character of Holy Orders and the sacramental character of marriage are not mutually exclusive conditions–otherwise, the Church would never ordain married men. Holy Orders is a canonical impediment, not an absolute, ontological impediment.

You are right, but priests who are laicized and receive a dispensation to marry are forbidden from participating in any ministerial role.