Pope Francis to meet Archbishop of Canterbury in October

[GKC]

Indeed. But perhaps the conclusion one can draw from ARCIC is that Anglicanism of yore has much in common with Catholicism of today.

But of course. Which was the point of of a lot of history, running back from Paul VI and ++Ramsey, back through the Malines Conversations, back to the hopeful Halifax and Portal.

Nowadays, not so much, of course. Unless you pick your Anglicans with exquisite care.

 

[commenter]

The talks have been in progress nigh unto 50 years, with a mass of paper published on the …conclusions. If you haven’t checked into it, look into the Anglican- Roman Catholic International Commission.

And going forward, I see the talks making more “progress”, for another 50 years. There will not be a single year with reported lack of progress.

Many years will be characterized by these words: historic breakthrough; mutual forgiveness; reconciliation; opening new horizons for common ministry; common understanding; overcoming barriers; and so on. None of this has much to do with the actual ongoing life of Catholics and the Catholic Church, or Anglicans and the Anglican Churches, in the present.

 

[GKC]

And going forward, I see the talks making more “progress”, for another 50 years. There will not be a single year with reported lack of progress.

Many years will be characterized by these words: historic breakthrough; mutual forgiveness; reconciliation; opening new horizons for common ministry; common understanding; overcoming barriers; and so on. None of this has much to do with the actual ongoing life of Catholics and the Catholic Church, or Anglicans and the Anglican Churches, in the present.

Sounds optimistically possible.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Sounds optimistically possible.

I’m starting to think, that like corporate funded “research”, many of the funds for participation depends on ‘progress.’ Gentlemen ( and women ) like meeting, greeting, flying around and smiling widely for photographs with one another, not necessarily for cause or with any measure of success. Perhaps the Russians, Antiochians, Copts and some others had a better idea - save money and meet those with whom real progress is possible.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I’m wondering if the Catholic representatives are actually representing Catholicism, or their own personal stance - which might extend from ‘pastoral sensitivity to Anglican sensibilities’

Of course those who are named as the Catholic representatives to the dialogue represent the Catholic position. Those chosen are chosen specifically for their knowledge and demonstrated competence in the field.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

And going forward, I see the talks making more “progress”, for another 50 years. There will not be a single year with reported lack of progress.

Many years will be characterized by these words: historic breakthrough; mutual forgiveness; reconciliation; opening new horizons for common ministry; common understanding; overcoming barriers; and so on. None of this has much to do with the actual ongoing life of Catholics and the Catholic Church, or Anglicans and the Anglican Churches, in the present.

Actually, I could hardly disagree more with your assessment.

The work profoundly affects the ongoing life of the Church.

I think back to those first years and see where the intervening years have brought us…I could never have imagined reaching the accords we have in the span of time that we have.

Moreover, the areas involving the allied fields, notably historians, has been a place of remarkable change from those early years of the dialogue. In many ways, the historians, with their methodologies, have overtaken those who are on the theological side.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The Anglican—Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC) is an organization created in 1969 which seeks to make ecumenical progress between the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion.[1] The sponsors are the Anglican Consultative Council and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (formerly the Secretariat for Promoting Christian Unity).

ARCIC seeks to identify common ground between the two communions. Ecumenical relations have become strained, owing to the ordination of women within the Anglican Communion and, in more recent years, the Anglican communion has internally become increasingly more divided over issues concerning human sexuality.

what actual progress has been made, not speculative, potential or hypothetical - actual progress? Historian methodologies are not the purview of ARCIC, so what exactly has this body done owing to ecumenical relations, that can be called “progress”?

 

[GKC]

what actual progress has been made, not speculative, potential or hypothetical - actual progress? Historian methodologies are not the purview of ARCIC, so what exactly has this body done owing to ecumenical relations, that can be called “progress”?

You might delve into the the details in the archives:

anglicancommunion.org/relationships/ecumenical-dialogues/roman-catholic/arcic.aspx

More data here:

iarccum.org/

and judge for yourself. Personally, I think the momentum is fading.

 

[Contarini]

Actually, I could hardly disagree more with your assessment.

The work profoundly affects the ongoing life of the Church.

I think back to those first years and see where the intervening years have brought us…I could never have imagined reaching the accords we have in the span of time that we have.

Moreover, the areas involving the allied fields, notably historians, has been a place of remarkable change from those early years of the dialogue. In many ways, the historians, with their methodologies, have overtaken those who are on the theological side.

How does it affect the ongoing life of the Church?

I’d love to believe you. But I don’t see it making a whole lot of difference on the ground.

I am seeking admission to the Church and am also married to an Episcopal priest.

How do all these accords affect my situation?

 

[Peter_J]

Of course those who are named as the Catholic representatives to the dialogue represent the Catholic position. Those chosen are chosen specifically for their knowledge and demonstrated competence in the field.

Certainly. But what about those on the Anglican side?

 

[GKC]

Certainly. But what about those on the Anglican side?

Probably the same, mutatis mutandis. Alas.

 

[commenter]

Of course those who are named as the Catholic representatives to the dialogue represent the Catholic position. Those chosen are chosen specifically for their knowledge and demonstrated competence in the field.

In what field? My guess is their field is Ecumenism. My guess is few or no Catholics or Anglicans are chosen for their expertise on the issues of Prolife, Sanctity of Marriage, Religious Liberty, and the struggle for doctrinal orthodoxy, against secular humanism in the West.

Ecumenism evolved into a “field” unto itself. I don’t doubt that, if a clarification was needed, some reps would “represent” the Catholic position, but I bet they are 100 times as committed to ecumenism as they are to preserving traditional marriage, or to explaining the priesthood as intended only for men, etc. The write ups I have seen seem to focus on historical issues. When they do touch on current controversial areas, the tone seems to be that, there is no chance the Anglicans will or should change, but maybe if we are patient, we can change the Catholic Church. Very gradually.

The tragedy of abortion is seen by ecumenists not so much as hundreds of millions of children having been killed, but rather, the “problem” is that it causes division and arguments.

 

[SyroMalankara]

 

[BrunoMaria]

http://file:///Users/kabri/Desktop/ml.jpg
if the picture doesn’t show, I did something wrong. It showed Luther, saying: Whoever drinks beer, he is quick to sleep; whoever sleeps long, doesn’t sin; whoever doesn’t sin, enters Heaven! Thus, let us drink beer!

Dear friends

when I send Jay’s funny note about Luther+Beer to the five members, I did so to show the many things we Christians got in common. (Such as the love of beer - which my wife doesn’t).

The funny picture about Luther advising to drink beer I had from a great Christian, was good too all of us and I was thankful about it. We all must learn, that we must not see Christianity and Belief and our togetherness with God in a cramped attitude, but in a cheerful one. OK - Luther skipped some ever so important things and called the Letter of James a „Straw-Epistle“ including is sola-doctrines - all of them was „unforgivable“. But let’s see all in the context of Luthers terrible time where our Church run danger zu sink into a sheer power and money structure. The schism was not Luther’s intension, but far more so enforced and to the delight of most secular powers who at once supported the separation of church and state. Jesus Christ too did separate Church and State in Mt 22,21 - but of course never any separate denominations and even persuasion, as God’s truth is not dividable. Divisions of course even started at Paul’s time - see e.g. in 1Cor 11,12.

Our problem is; that we tend to see the various Christian Denominations less in loving common devotion to God, but in pointing at the others - who all the same are Christians with firm belief in Jesus Christ.
All my life I suffered strongly under the mutual accusations, which I of course heard ever since childhood, as my family was divided in Protestants and Catholics with on both sides Prot. and Cath. Priests.
We all on both sides must strictly avoid such thing, for it’s a greater disgrace in God’s eyes, than different views of God’s truth (which is not dividable).
Even though over here in Germany the aversions between the denominations are not as serious as in the US, since we don’t have so many different Churches. It still hurt me as a child and later juvenile very much.

When I asked an Anglican Bishop;
"Do you accept any Catholics in your Anglican Church?“

I jokingly meant this for me of course, because Luther recommended beer in the picture he send to me ;-D Beer is my main nourishment ;-D
The fact that really many Anglican Churches in the US do have a great deal of lapsed Catholics attending, probably results of failing Catholic Priests. Yes, I personally had a lot in direct personal clashes with “my” priests. Two of them committed Child abusement, others refused talks etc. But that’s not really a valid reason to turn one’s back on our Church. Failing priests are not THE CHURCH.
On the other hand, there is many a Catholic who is not halve as near to God than his protestant brother or sister in Christ - and of course vice versa.

Still. If we were granted a swift look into heaven, we at once would rush to have but one Church - the one Christ founded - without accusing anyone else but ourselves, for not having been more firm in belief. To accuse anyone within our common Christian community of all denominations, for not serving God the right way, remains the sin of the Pharisees.

Now, I wrote to friends: ……but I still would never ask any of my evangelical friends and relatives to convert, as this creates aversion as well against us as against our Church. Main thing is, that they believe firmly in Jesus Christ. Same I said yesterday to a friend here, and he was shocked at my „disbelief“ in Catholicism.
That’s totally wrong, since I am a Catholic out of absolute conviction, and yes, I’d be as delighted as you were, if there’d be the long overdue reunification of all Churches with the one Christ founded. There is anyhow but this reunification possible and will be done one day.
But the damage done by those who stay back when a member of their Church converts, is often larger than the advantage the proselyte gains for himself. I remember how it damaged my soul, when my brother converted 1960 to Protestant. I was shocked.
In other cases like conversion of Protestants to Catholicism, it hardened the aversions of those residual and strengthens their reluctance to Catholicism.

Now, I don’t know how the Parishioners of John Henry Newman reacted upon his conversion. He however was a great sample to many even in our modern time where years ago quite a few Anglican clerics converted together at same time. Pope Benedict had received them with open arms (forgot details and dates). However: Conversion is same very intimate thing between God and the individual, and we must beware of judging the pros and contras and even push anyone, for many a Protestant Cleric is more useful to God on the place where he is active for God now, than if he’d leave.

file:///Schreibkram/Foren/MailCircleOrdner/MailCircleBilder/2391John%20Henry%20Newman.jpg
John Henry Newman.jpg probably isn’t shown here either. Please tell me how to insert pictures.

Let’s beware to imagine brothers and sisters in God in another denomination are living in sin. Sadly enough all denominations commonly do accuse the others, but it’s most unchristian to do so - and a disgrace before God.

Yours
Bruno