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larsont7
Guest
Fr. Z’s thoughts on this (an interesting read):
wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/francis-to-say-holy-thursday-mass-at-a-prison/
wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/francis-to-say-holy-thursday-mass-at-a-prison/
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tinhson24
Guest
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TaurusRex
Guest
At least I’m on-topic now so I’ll say that as far as I can determine, Jesus washed the feet of His twelve apostles at the Last Supper as a practical gesture at a time when sandals were worn in the Holy Lands and feet got dirty and He advised His apostles to do the same for each other;
But I find no mention of His having kissed their feet.
In some third world countries today, I can imagine that the washing of feet of guests at supper may still be considered a practical and accepted gesture especially when one gets older and the task becomes more difficult to perform on oneself.
rex
But I find no mention of His having kissed their feet.
In some third world countries today, I can imagine that the washing of feet of guests at supper may still be considered a practical and accepted gesture especially when one gets older and the task becomes more difficult to perform on oneself.
rex
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Marie5890
Guest
I read his blog post, and also have been pondering many of the posts here.
Im not convinced that the Pope is image conscience, nor that it is necessary for him to be so. From the little understanding I have about both Jesuit and Franciscan spirituality, being image conscience would be discourage, if any thing.
Im finding it hard to explain what I mean.
But I think Fr. Z perhaps is missing or misunderstanding something. Perhaps he is getting caught up in the image that Pope Francis may or may not be leaving with some people. But that is more of a reflection how and what each person, is taking away from what the Pope is doing and will do. Making it more complicated that it needs to be.
Where as Pope Francis may just very well be living out his spirituality in the context of his Petrine ministry. It may not be nearly as complicated to him.
It’s understandable that people are putting him “under a microscope” and disecting every single little thing, as it were. But I am not seeing it as being very helpful. I think it makes people miss the bigger picture.
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JReducation
Guest
We have to look at this for what it is. Every pope is an individual. He has his style, which is shaped by his experience. I like what Michael Voris had to say on this score. I wish I could find it again. In essence, he says that same thing that I said before. We have to stop imposing on the pope. Popes are not carbon copies of each other and they’re not expected to be. They’re individuals. They have different perspectives. They have different worldviews. They even have different views of the Church and the papacy.
To this, I would add that while the pope does not own the papacy, the papacy has been shaped by the popes. Scripture does not give us a standard for the papacy. It gives us a standard for Peter. He is to strengthen his brothers in the faith. How Peter does this is up to him to figure it out. Jesus did not map it out for him.
The richness of the papacy is due precisely to the diversity that the 266 popes bring to the office. If each of them were a carbon copy of the previous one, today’s pope would look like a first century Jewish transplant to the Roman Empire, which is what Peter probably looked like.
Only consecrated men and women and married people make vows. Secular priests make a promise of obedience to their bishop. The promise is simple and it’s renewed at the Chrism Mass.
People often make this promise into some kind of solemn vow, which it is not.
Only religious who belong to orders, not even those who belong to congregations, make solemn vows. Outside of that select group, married people also make solemn vows to each other.
We must be careful not to make this something that sounds like the pope is changing all the rules. He’s going by his own style and his charism as a Jesuit. It probably would not occur to a Jesuit bishop that he absolutely must celebrate Holy Thursday mass at his cathedral. This does not mean that a Jesuit bishop would not do so. As a son of St. Ignatius, he probably sees himself as a free soldier who goes where God calls him to go. That could be to his cathedral or some other place. This sense of freedom is one of the perks that comes with being a member of a religious order. If you can call it a perk.
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ATeutonicKnight
Guest
I’ll be honest, I only looked at this thread because I saw you post.
And it was well worth it! Thanks for the great post. You have been great in helping defend the Pope from allegedly “breaking away” from tradition, even though he is keeping fully with it.
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Brendan_64
Guest
I think this is a wonderful thing for the Pope to do.
Pope Francis gave us a very clear message in his inaugural homily, that we are to be protectors of the poor, the infirm, those in prison. Perhaps Pope Francis is leading by example and showing us all that we need to focus more of our energies on those in need? Perhaps he is giving a message that caring for the least of our brothers is of greater importance than be careful to adhere with tradition for the sake of tradition?
Whatever his motives I applaud Pope Francis. It seems that his inaugural homily may be setting the tone for his Papacy and he has wasted no time in living this out through his actions. I expect we will see a lot more like this from Pope Francis.
I truly believe that Pope Francis will prove to be one of the Church’s greatest Popes.
Pope Francis gave us a very clear message in his inaugural homily, that we are to be protectors of the poor, the infirm, those in prison. Perhaps Pope Francis is leading by example and showing us all that we need to focus more of our energies on those in need? Perhaps he is giving a message that caring for the least of our brothers is of greater importance than be careful to adhere with tradition for the sake of tradition?
Whatever his motives I applaud Pope Francis. It seems that his inaugural homily may be setting the tone for his Papacy and he has wasted no time in living this out through his actions. I expect we will see a lot more like this from Pope Francis.
I truly believe that Pope Francis will prove to be one of the Church’s greatest Popes.
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HelenRose
Guest
I have an idea he will be far more compassionate and diplomatic that.I can just imagine the Vatican bureaucrat who says to the Holy Father “but it’s always done this way” and getting the response “Not any more it isn’t”
I think this is another wonderful sign of the deep goodness of our Holy Father… someone to whom the words ‘service’ mean real actions in the real world and who leads by example.
We are living in wonderful and amazing times
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mercytruth
Guest
As an initial enthusiast over Pope Francis, the washing of the feet of incarcerated young people on Holy Thursday seems inappropriate from the gospel standpoint. I am under the impression that when Jesus washed the feet of his disciples, it represented servanthood within the body of Christ, and not servanthood to offenders of the law.
Don’t get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with reaching out to those who are in prison for wrong doing, but washing their feet seems to conflict with the gospel example of the washing of the disciples feet.
God’s peace
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choliks
Guest
And at the very root of servant hood is love.
Are you trying to say that “offenders of the law” have forfeited their place in God’s love and mercy? The apostles weren’t exactly pristine when Jesus washed their feet. Those who are already clean need not be washed.
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mercytruth
Guest
To be honest, I find it difficult to extend the reality of the Fatherhood of God, and the brotherhood of Jesus Christ to those who are outside of the Body of Christ.
However, we are commanded to extend the servanthood of love to all, even if an individual is not a spiritually adopted child of our heavenly Father, and of the brotherhood through baptism in the sacrificial death and bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God’s peace
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godisgood77
Guest
How do you define “Outside the Body of Christ”? Our Holy Father clearly sees the People of God as all people…sounds like you would not look at it that way.
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mercytruth
Guest
Every human being is a child of the Creator created in His image and likeness who are in need of salvation from sin and death.
Every baptized Christian is a redeemed child of the Creator who becomes a Holy Spirit- spiritually adopted child of our heavenly Father, and a member of the Body of Christ.
God’s peace
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Mike30
Guest
I was unaware that the Church had defined the People of God as being all human beings. I thought that Baptism had something to do with it.
Oh well, live and learn.
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Brendan_64
Guest
How do you make the assumption that prisoners are “outside of the Body of Christ”? Do you know anything of the religious beliefs of those prisoners? Does a criminal conviction result in a person being cast away from God? Those prisoners may be as much Catholic as you or I. And even if they are not, does that mean they are cast outside of God’s love and mercy.
Jesus died for all men, not just Catholics, and certainly not just those without criminal convictions.
Who are we to determine who is and who isn’t worthy, who is and who isn’t part of the Body of Christ?
As Archbishop of Buenos Aires Pope Francis has made a point of celebrating Mass with the prostitutes of Buenos Aires, kissing the feet of AIDS victims, celebrated mass in the streets with the homeless, and has celebrated Mass in prisons before.
He is taking the Church to those in most need, and for that he ought to be applauded. We should welcome his compassion and his evangelical zeal. He is truly a man of God.
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Brendan_64
Guest
And you assume that those in prison have not been baptised?
And offenders of the law are therefore outside of the Body of Christ?
I must remember that the next time I break the speed limit.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I don’t think he was assuming anything.
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Brendan_64
Guest
If he doesn’t actually mean this then fair enough.
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mercytruth
Guest
You are correct, I can not assume that all twelve juvenile drug offenders have not been baptized. I think one could assume that they need deliverance. When Peter said to Jesus Christ, ‘wash my hands and my head’’, Jesus replied, Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean,
It is probable that Jesus was referring to the fact that the twelve had been baptized and made clean through the words of Jesus Christ. In effect, these twelve **are **disciples of Jesus Christ, except for Judas, the betrayer.
It would seem to me, that these drug offenders need to be taught the words of Jesus so that their whole body could be made clean through the washing of the water by the word. Yes, showing them the love of God is important, but more important is the truth, the truth that will set them free from their drug addictions, the truth that will set them free from unforgiveness, anger and whatever else is holding them in bondage. Hence, becoming disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Celebrating Mass with prostitutes will not save them. All of us baptized, or unbaptized sinners need repentance. instruction, and reconciliation in Jesus Christ before we receive the Holy Eucharist.
I would not criticize Pope Francis for all the love of God through which he has been a vessel toward the homeless, prostitutes, the poor, the addicted. It is the context in which he is celebrating Holy Thursday that seems to me to be untraditional, and contrary to the gospel account.
God’s peace
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Mike30
Guest
Actually, I was responding to this particular quote
How do you define “Outside the Body of Christ”? Our Holy Father clearly sees the People of God as all people…sounds like you would not look at it that way.
The Church has defined itself as the People of God. The Church consists of those baptized into it. Not everyone falls into that category. Therefore by the Churches own teaching not every person falls under the term the People of God.
As to the offenders in prison, I have no idea if they are members of the Church or not and have made no assumption one way or the other…
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