Pope Francis v Archbishop Vigano

  • Thread starter Thread starter DoughnutGuy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
pnewton said:
That would seem reasonable. I guess I am even more aggressive, or far less, depending on how you look at it. Knowing that clergy are not experts at forensic investigation, I would say accept they are also not the best at contracting it as well and whenever possible, investigate nothing, but fully cooperate with those whose job it actually is to punish criminals.
Click to expand...
Yes, you’re right: that is, the different kinds of investigations with the different kinds of purposes require different kinds of experts. I’d think the person facing a credible accusation would not be able to do any public ministry until found not guilty by the investigations. I’d think the Church would need any criminal proceedings to conclude before taking up the matter, as well, because of the possibility of their investigations unintentionally doing harm to the civil legal process if they waded in too soon. (They don’t want to be talking to witnesses at all before the DA and the defense are finished, etc, lest they interfere with officers of the court.)
 
Last edited:
I agree with most of the others–we’re not on a jury, so we’re not required to say who’s right.

However, Francis does seem to think he can pretty much ignore the situation and it will go away. It won’t, and I don’t think he gets that. While this is going on it’s pretty much pointless to discuss much more trivial matters. If you just flip the scenario for a minute and change “pope” to “president” and then imagine such a sweeping worldwide scandal of “the president’s” party members on a similar scale…and then imagine the “president” calling a meeting to discuss taxes or roads and expecting people to concentrate on taxes or roads and forget the scandal…that would be, shall we say, unlikely, right?

Those who are blaming the media for simply reporting the story, or those who blame anti-Catholics for concocting “false” information are simply sticking their heads in the sand. The blame should go squarely where it belongs–those who abused others (and not just children) and those who consciously made a decision to cover it up.

There’s not going to be a “civil” investigation. Every institution, whether it’s the police, a school, or a corporation resists outsiders coming in to “investigate.” So that’s a fantasy. It’s also a fantasy to insist on “proof” in the sense of 100% certainty. If 50 people come forward, with no coordination among them, and tell the same story, it’s nonsense to say these are “allegations” and “unproven.” And just because someone hasn’t been found guilty in a court of law doesn’t mean they are innocent. And even those who have been found guilty in court (Pell, for example) still have supporters who think it’s all a big conspiracy.

I think everyone needs to understand that until the Church puts this whole thing behind it–by dealing with it, not ignoring it–it’s not going to be business as usual.
 
I hate it when people use the old “head in the sand” accusation for those that do not see things as they do. Maybe those people see more than you do. For example, in the situations where bishops have come together to address the danger of child abuse, successfully even, there are still journalists and elected politicians that will attack based on what has already been addressed. The idea that this could be addressed in anyway that would provide business as usual is what I see to be the naive view. The Church has too many enemies.
 
MasterHaster said:
That has proven to be a recipe for failure in the abuse crisis. More of the same is not a prescription for success.
Click to expand...
You’re right. We’re much better off discussing it on a message board casting blame based on half truths.

Trust God knows what He is doing.

Pray for mercy from our Lord & Savior.

Hope in His Goodness & Mercy.

Only He can save us, His Church.
 
Some people may not have their heads in the sand, but sometimes there is a complacency to their words when they suggest that our only course of action is to remain silent and pray.

Scripture is filled with numerous stories of God’s people suffering defeat and enduring punishment because they chose to remain complacent and idle. We should be praying, but we are also called to resist, to speak out, to confront and when necessary fight.

Joshua was told by God that the Canaanites needed to be driven out and if necessary wiped out, because He knew they would corrupt the Jews if they were allowed to remain in the land.

These corrupt clergy and others who support them need to be exposed and driven out. If we allow them to remain with the belief that all we need to do is pray for them to do the right thing, we are opening ourselves up to the possibility that they will corrupt the laity and lead many astray, as they’ve already done.
 
Last edited:
Crusader13 said:
Some people may not have their heads in the sand, but sometimes there is a complacency to their words when they suggest that our only course of action is to remain silent and pray.
Click to expand...
Some people believe prayer to be our single most powerful weapon in the service of the Church. Such belief does require faith though. Too many today disregard the biggest tool in our arsenal until nothing exists but desperation. Prayer is the job. It is the battleground. It is the instrument of first response, not last resort.

I do not think we need consider killing all our enemies, men, women, and children, along with all their animals, quite yet.
 
I don’t think that prayer is all we should do though. Prayer without action is like faith without works.
 
Crusader13 said:
These corrupt clergy and others who support them need to be exposed and driven out. If we allow them to remain with the belief that all we need to do is pray for them to do the right thing, we are opening ourselves up to the possibility that they will corrupt the laity and lead many astray, as they’ve already done.
Click to expand...
I’m not suggesting we pray that these people do the right thing. I’m suggesting we pray to God for help. To save His people from this current crisis.
O Israel, hope in the Lord *
both now and for ever.
Click to expand...
O Lord, you once favored your land *
and revived the fortunes of Jacob,
you forgave the guilt of your people *
and covered all their sins.
You averted all your rage, *
you calmed the heat of your anger.

Revive us now, God, our helper! *
Put an end to your grievance against us.
Will you be angry with us for ever, *
will your anger never cease?

Will you not restore again our life *
that your people may rejoice in you?
Let us see, O Lord, your mercy *
and give us your saving help.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top