Pope Francis wants greater roles for women in the Church.

[clem456]

Pope Francis exhorting us to considering Mary as a role model in the faith.
Mary the first disciple, Mother of the Church.

In the Psalm we said: “Sing to the Lord a new song, for he has done marvellous things” (Ps 98:1).

Today we consider one of the marvellous things which the Lord has done: Mary! A lowly and weak creature like ourselves, **she was chosen **to be the Mother of God, the Mother of her Creator.

**Considering Mary **in the light of the readings we have just heard, I would like to reflect with you on three things: first, God surprises us, second, God asks us to be faithful, and third, God is our strength.

1. First: God surprises us. The story of Naaman, the commander of the army of the king of Aram, is remarkable. In order to be healed of leprosy, he turns to the prophet of God, Elisha, who does not perform magic or demand anything unusual of him, but asks him simply to trust in God and to wash in the waters of the river. Not, however, in one of the great rivers of Damascus, but in the little stream of the Jordan. Naaman is left surprised, even taken aback. What kind of God is this who asks for something so simple? He wants to turn back, but then he goes ahead, he immerses himself in the Jordan and is immediately healed (cf. 2 Kg 5:1-4). There it is: God surprises us. It is precisely in poverty, in weakness and in humility that he reveals himself and grants us his love, which saves us, heals us and gives us strength. He asks us only to obey his word and to trust in him.
   This was the experience of the Virgin Mary. At the message of the angel, she does not hide her surprise. It is the astonishment of realizing that God, to become man, had chosen her, a simple maid of Nazareth. Not someone who lived in a palace amid power and riches, or one who had done extraordinary things, but simply someone who was open to God and put her trust in him, even without understanding everything: “Here I am, the servant of the Lord; let it be with me according to your word” (Lk 1:38). That was her answer. God constantly surprises us, he bursts our categories, he wreaks havoc with our plans. And he tells us: Trust me, do not be afraid, let yourself be surprised, leave yourself behind and follow me!

Today let us all ask ourselves whether we are afraid of what God might ask, or of what he does ask. Do I let myself be surprised by God, as Mary was, or do I remain caught up in my own safety zone: in forms of material, intellectual or ideological security, taking refuge in my own projects and plans? Do I truly let God into my life? How do I answer him?
2.
…

Mary said her “yes” to God: a “yes” which threw her simple life in Nazareth into turmoil, and not only once. Any number of times she had to utter a heartfelt “yes” at moments of joy and sorrow, culminating in the “yes” she spoke at the foot of the Cross. Here today there are many mothers present; think of the full extent of Mary’s faithfulness to God: seeing her only Son hanging on the Cross. The faithful woman, still standing, utterly heartbroken, yet faithful and strong.

And I ask myself: Am I a Christian by fits and starts, or am I a Christian full-time? Our culture of the ephemeral, the relative, also takes it toll on the way we live our faith. God asks us to be faithful to him, daily, in our everyday life. He goes on to say that, even if we are sometimes unfaithful to him, he remains faithful. In his mercy, he never tires of stretching out his hand to lift us up, to encourage us to continue our journey, to come back and tell him of our weakness, so that he can grant us his strength. This is the real journey: to walk with the Lord always, even at moments of weakness, even in our sins. Never to prefer a makeshift path of our own. That kills us. Faith is ultimate fidelity, like that of Mary.
3. The last thing: God is our strength. I think of the ten lepers in the Gospel who were healed by Jesus. They approach him and, keeping their distance, they call out: “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!” (Lk 17:13). They are sick, they need love and strength, and they are looking for someone to heal them. Jesus responds by freeing them from their disease. Strikingly, however, only one of them comes back, praising God and thanking him in a loud voice. Jesus notes this: ten asked to be healed and only one returned to praise God in a loud voice and to acknowledge that he is our strength. Knowing how to give thanks, to give praise for everything that the Lord has done for us.

Take Mary. After the Annunciation, her first act is one of charity towards her elderly kinswoman Elizabeth. Her first words are: “My soul magnifies the Lord”, in other words, a song of praise and thanksgiving to God not only for what he did for her, but for what he had done throughout the history of salvation. Everything is his gift. If we can realize that everything is God’s gift, how happy will our hearts be! Everything is his gift. He is our strength! Saying “thank you” is such an easy thing, and yet so hard! How often do we say “thank you” to one another in our families? These are essential words for our life in common. “Sorry”, “excuse me”, “thank you”. If families can say these three things, they will be fine. “Sorry”, “excuse me”, “thank you”. How often do we say “thank you” in our families? How often do we say “thank you” to those who help us, those close to us, those at our side throughout life? All too often we take everything for granted! This happens with God too. It is easy to approach the Lord to ask for something, but to go and thank him: “Well, I don’t need to”.

As we continue our celebration of the Eucharist, let us invoke Mary’s intercession. May she help us to be open to God’s surprises, to be faithful to him each and every day, and to praise and thank him, for he is our strength. Amen.

 

[clem456]

773 In the Church this communion of men with God, in the “love [that] never ends,” is the purpose which governs everything in her that is a sacramental means, tied to this passing world.192 "[The Church’s] structure is totally ordered to the holiness of Christ’s members. And holiness is measured according to the ‘great mystery’ in which the Bride responds with the gift of love to the gift of the Bridegroom.“193 Mary goes before us all in the holiness that is the Church’s mystery as "the bride without spot or wrinkle."194 This is why the “Marian” dimension of the Church precedes the "Petrine.”

 

[triumphguy]

He noted that John Paul II’s apostolic letter teaches that “God entrusts man, the human being, to woman in a special way.”

“What does this ‘special entrustment’ mean?” asked Pope Francis.

You forgot to highlight this:

**“I think it is evident that my predecessor refers to motherhood,” he explained. “And this is not simply a biological fact, but it involves a wealth of implications both for woman herself, for her way of being, and for her relationships, for a way of extending respect for human life and for life in general.”

The Pope then warned of two ever-present dangers, “two extreme opposites that degrade woman and her vocation.”

“The first is to reduce motherhood to a social role, to a task, however noble, but in fact sets apart woman with her potential, not fully valuing her in the construction of the community,” he noted.

The second peril is that of “promoting a type of emancipation that, in order to occupy the space stolen by the masculine, abandons the feminine with its priceless elements.”

He said women can help provide better insight into the nature of God.**

What are the “wealth of implications”?

What does this mean "reduc(ing) motherhood to a social role, to a task, however noble, but in fact sets apart woman with her potential, not fully valuing her in the construction of the community”?

“* not fully valuing her in the construction of the community,*”

What is "the feminine with its priceless elements”?

How can women “help provide better insight into the nature of God”?

Does this mean business as usual, but don’t forget the Mother’s Day cards and flowers?

 

[Elizabeth502]

You are entirely missing my point! Read the Gospel for today!.

When I heard this morning’s Gospel, I was precisely thinking of this.

And the same is true for men, including men in the clergy. If they’re seeking “position,” then they are not worthy of their title. And men in Religious Life are specifically formed to lose ambition and recognition as goals in their vocation.

A tiny percentage of practicing male Catholics have any significant “power” in the Church in the traditional or formal sense of the word. Men and women for Christ, whatever their roles, are called to witness to a very different kind of power – divine,not human.

Women are not in the least bit restricted in witnessing, equally, to the majestic power of God. Any woman or man who thinks that spiritual power is contingent on governantal power has completely missed the Gospel message.

 

[triumphguy]

When I heard this morning’s Gospel, I was precisely thinking of this.

And the same is true for men, including men in the clergy. If they’re seeking “position,” then they are not worthy of their title. And men in Religious Life are specifically formed to lose ambition and recognition as goals in their vocation.

A tiny percentage of practicing male Catholics have any significant “power” in the Church in the traditional or formal sense of the word. Men and women for Christ, whatever their roles, are called to witness to a very different kind of power – divine,not human.

Women are not in the least bit restricted in witnessing, equally, to the majestic power of God. Any woman or man who thinks that spiritual power is contingent on governantal power has completely missed the Gospel message.

Show me any one of my posts that asks for governental powers for women, or for more “praise” or temporal power.

I think some are focusing on a clerical idea of the church.

Let me reiterate some of the points above:

• What are the “wealth of implications” re motherhood?
• What does this mean "reduc(ing) motherhood to a social role, to a task, however noble, but in fact sets apart woman with her potential, not fully valuing her in the construction of the community”?
• " not fully valuing her in the construction of the community,"
• What is "the feminine with its priceless elements”?
• How can women “help provide better insight into the nature of God”?

I don’t have an answer, but I think we should have a proper discussion, and not a “don’t seek power” and “be humble like Mary” approach.

The church is the Bride of Christ, yet it is run by men (not knocking that, just saying). If the Bride of Christ was truly informed by women as mother what attributes could be added?

 

[Mike30]

Since women already occupy every role in the Church except for that of ordained clergy, I do wonder exactly what the Holy Father was driving at. I have read on several forums that perhaps he is considering making a woman a Cardinal. True at the current time, Canon Law requires that Cardinals at a minimum be Priests but, such was not always the case, and, if I understand things correctly, the Pope is not bound by Canon Law anyway,and can dispense people from it.

I really can’t thing of anything else he could be referring to.

 

[edwest2]

When I heard this morning’s Gospel, I was precisely thinking of this.

And the same is true for men, including men in the clergy. If they’re seeking “position,” then they are not worthy of their title. And men in Religious Life are specifically formed to lose ambition and recognition as goals in their vocation.

A tiny percentage of practicing male Catholics have any significant “power” in the Church in the traditional or formal sense of the word. Men and women for Christ, whatever their roles, are called to witness to a very different kind of power – divine,not human.

Women are not in the least bit restricted in witnessing, equally, to the majestic power of God. Any woman or man who thinks that spiritual power is contingent on governantal power has completely missed the Gospel message.

That is the problem here. God will not give me what He wants. He, through the Pope, must give me what I want. Sad that this conversation is continuing. Let’s find out what God wants through the Holy Father - at the appointed time, not before.

Peace,
Ed

 

[triumphguy]

That is the problem here. God will not give me what He wants. He, through the Pope, must give me what I want. Sad that this conversation is continuing. Let’s find out what God wants through the Holy Father - at the appointed time, not before.

Peace,
Ed

I think it’s a pity that the conversation is only stumbling along.

I don’t think the Pope is trying to shut us up, or why bring up the subject?

I think he is musing on the same bullet points that we are.

What I get from his recent homilies etc., is that he doesn’t want us to shut up and “pay, pray and obey” to but to genuinely participate.

And I don’t think your point about getting what we want in ministry is fair - anyone who has ever been in any form of ministry in the church knows how demanding it can be, and how ministry usually forces us to be humble if we aren’t already.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Show me any one of my posts that asks for governental powers for women, or for more “praise” or temporal power.

I think some are focusing on a clerical idea of the church.

Let me reiterate some of the points above:

• What are the “wealth of implications” re motherhood?
• What does this mean "reduc(ing) motherhood to a social role, to a task, however noble, but in fact sets apart woman with her potential, not fully valuing her in the construction of the community”?
• " not fully valuing her in the construction of the community,"
• What is "the feminine with its priceless elements”?
• How can women “help provide better insight into the nature of God”?

I don’t have an answer, but I think we should have a proper discussion, and not a “don’t seek power” and “be humble like Mary” approach.

The church is the Bride of Christ, yet it is run by men (not knocking that, just saying). If the Bride of Christ was truly informed by women as mother what attributes could be added?

Your series of questions within quotation marks above were not any points I brought up, so you’ll have to seek your answers from a different poster.

 

[YoungTradCath]

What I get from his recent homilies etc., is that he doesn’t want us to shut up and “pay, pray and obey” to but to genuinely participate.

Yeah, but what’s that mean?

 

[Elizabeth502]

What I get from his recent homilies etc., is that he doesn’t want us to shut up and “pay, pray and obey” to but to genuinely participate.

You’re in North America. Why don’t you tell us where, in North America in 2013,

~lay men are not able to “genuinely participate” [in the life of the Church]
~lay women are not able to “genuinely participate” [in the life of the Church]
~consecrated Religious, both male and female, are not able to “genuinely participate” [in the life of the Church]

Where are “we” (presumably lay men and lay women) being told to

shut up and “pay, pray and obey”

And while you’re at it, why don’t you define “genuine” participation? Is there phony participation or token participation or quasi-participation? Until Pope Francis was elected in March, women did not “genuinely participate?” Or is that phrase just your interpretation of what he “must have meant”?

 

[Just_Lurking]

Women, as a gender, are not prevented from any roles except clerical in the Church.

This is almost true. The two exceptions under current canon law are that women cannot be permanently instituted as lectors, or as acolytes. I predict that the Pope will be changing this soon, at least as far as lectors are concerned.

 

[clem456]

That is the problem here. God will not give me what He wants. He, through the Pope, must give me what I want. Sad that this conversation is continuing. Let’s find out what God wants through the Holy Father - at the appointed time, not before.

Peace,
Ed

There are two or three of you that are inventing problems that did not exist in this thread, then using your own creations as a launching point. When asked to be specific about which posts you are addressing, there is silence. Other posters discuss in good faith what the Pope is saying, and post from the Catechism (actual teaching of the Church), while others project problems. It poisons the discussion unfortunately. You could have spent all this time discussing with other Catholics what the Pope says about Mary, and what the Catechism says about her. I guess the Pope’s teaching and Catechism are not worth addressing?

 

[clem456]

All this nonsense about the role God is asking each of us to play in His plan and not being happy with the role He gave you sounds a lot like a rebellious angel who didn’t like his role and was kicked out of Heaven because of it.

Which nonsense specifically? Who is not happy?
Did you just compare some of your fellow Catholics to Satan?
Who is not happy?

 

[agnes_therese]

Since women already occupy every role in the Church except for that of ordained clergy, I do wonder exactly what the Holy Father was driving at. I have read on several forums that perhaps he is considering making a woman a Cardinal. True at the current time, Canon Law requires that Cardinals at a minimum be Priests but, such was not always the case, and, if I understand things correctly, the Pope is not bound by Canon Law anyway,and can dispense people from it.

I really can’t thing of anything else he could be referring to.

But that doesn’t mean that he isn’t thinking of something else. People keep bringing this up, without one single shred of a hint from the Holy Father that that’s where he’s going with this.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Yes, woman do fill many roles in the church, but often they are suspect when they do.

There have been many, many discussions here and IRL about things like why a woman (whether she is a religious or not) could possibly be made administrator of a priestless parish, how she could possibly teach in a seminary, be head of a diocesean or Vatican department, or - heaven-forbid - lead a “communion service.”

It is difficult for many Catholics to accept that if a role is open to a lay person, that it is open to ANY lay person - man or woman.

I doubt very highly that Pope Francis is contemplating creating a female cardinal. I think he’s working to help us all see that there is an important place in the church (in many roles) for women. He talks about motherhood - physical and spiritual - and our previous popes have also spoken about that. JPII in particular wrote beautiful reflections on the role of women and spiritual motherhood.

Here is just one from his general audiences on Mary. His encyclical on women is also wonderful.

Women sow the seeds of the civilization of love

Mary’s maternal heart, open to all human misfortune, also reminds women that the development of the feminine personality calls for a commitment to charity. More sensitive to the values of the heart, woman shows a high capacity for personal self-giving.

To all in our age who offer selfish models for affirming the feminine personality, the luminous and holy figure of the Lord’s Mother shows how only by self-giving and self-forgetfulness towards others is it possible to attain authentic fulfilment of the divine plan for one’s own life.

Mary’s presence therefore encourages sentiments of mercy and solidarity in women for situations of human distress and arouses a desire to alleviate the pain of those who suffer: the poor, the sick and all in need of help.

In virtue of her special bond with Mary, woman has often in the course of history represented God’s closeness to the expectations of goodness and tenderness of a humanity wounded by hatred and sin, by sowing in the world seeds of a civilization that can respond to violence with love.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm8.htm

 

[Elizabeth502]

This is almost true. The two exceptions under current canon law are that women cannot be permanently instituted as lectors, or as acolytes. I predict that the Pope will be changing this soon, at least as far as lectors are concerned.

“And?” That therefore means that they are not “fully participating?” If so, I call that a mere formality or tokenism, since informally (without “permanent institution”) there are at least as many practicing female lectors in any modern parish as there are male. (Usually, the females outnumber the males in this category.)

Thus, they are not being denied the role of lector in the Church, merely some title. And if they are seeking after titles, there are abundant New Testament quotes from the mouth of Jesus condemning the seeking after titles.

 

[M1Garand]

Since John Paul II the door has been shut on the ordination of women to Holy Orders.

So what DOES the Pope mean when he says he wants more profound roles for women in the church?

He is following the dictate of Lumen Gentium.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

He is following the dictate of Lumen Gentium.

Lumen Gentium is a pretty “loaded” document, care to elaborate a little?
Not sure where you are going, but it might add something useful to this conversation.

 

[M1Garand]

Lumen Gentium is a pretty “loaded” document, care to elaborate a little?
Not sure where you are going, but it might add something useful to this conversation.

The document calls for a greater participation of the laity in the Mass and in the affairs of the local churches. It further explicitly says that there is no distinction or hierarch between men and women in the Church they are all equal. This is not to infer that woman can be priest or deacons it is simply a statement about the equality of laity in the Church and of men and women in general. He is therefore simply calling women to greater participation pursuant to that document.

If you listen to Francis he is teaching the Lumen Gentium little by little in his proclamations in conformity to the year of faith.