Pope Francis wants greater roles for women in the Church.

[JRKH]

But, you see, all this is simply not radical enough!

Actually I don’t see it this way…

To me, it’s not a matter of being “radical” but rather being misguided - and this can occur on both sides.
It strikes me as an emphasis on titles instead of actions…it’s like the Apostles following Jesus and arguing over who will be the greatest in the new kingdom.
Jesus reply to such foolishness is that the one who is the greatest is the one who is the servant of the others.

Men can get off track thinking that they are somehow superior because they can be ordained…and dismiss the contributions of women…and make themselves small because of their pride.
Women can get off track by thinking that they are somehow excluded because they may not be ordained and thus miss opportunities to be of even greater service to God because they are too fixed on a title.

He who is the greatest must be the servant of the others…

We are called to service and our “title” means nothing…

Just some thoughts…

Peace
James

 

[YoungTradCath]

WRONG!!! The Eastern Rite Cardinals-Patriarch hold their patriarchal see as their cardinalate see, see CIC Canon 350 §3…

Cardinal-Patriarch Emmanuel III Delly holds Babylon as his Cardinalate See
Cardinal-Patriarch Antonios Naguib holds Alexandria
Cardinal-Patriarch Nasrallah Pierre Sfeir holds Antioch jointly with Cardinal-Patriarch Béchara Pierre Raï, both for the Maronites.

So do you feel like you scored points with that post? Not being snarky, just pointing out the tone of your post…

“WRONG!!!”

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

But, you see, all this is simply not radical enough!

Exactly! The spirit of the world doesn’t want the Church to “better explain” their theological position, it wants the Church to abandon its position and follow it.

“Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”–Matthew 4:8-9

People who are caught up in the spirit of the world will only follow the Church when it resembles what they’re already worshiping and that is themselves.

 

[M-Dent]

Pope John Paul didn’t “shut the door” on women’s ordination. Our Lord did that at the Last Supper. John Paul just confirmed it infallibly because of all the liberal women yelling for it. Now lets just move on and wait for the Holy Father to let us know just what he meant the role of Women to be in the future.God Bless Memaw

Exactly.

Elements of the faith are explained more fully in different time periods (usually when challenged) yet it is all passed on from generation to generation. Not manufactured by man’s rules.

 

[Usige]

Since John Paul II the door has been shut on the ordination of women to Holy Orders.

So what DOES the Pope mean when he says he wants more profound roles for women in the church?

What could be possible?

…

Pope Francis sees maternity as key to women’s role
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=19347&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CatholicWorldNewsFeatureStories+(Catholic+World+News+(on+CatholicCulture.org

I think it’s interesting that many have overlook his comments about marriage and motherhood. I wonder how many people forget that Christ’s ministry and first miracle at Cana was at the urging of his mother. The Blessed Virgin had a huge impact on the Church without ever being ordained or wearing the red of a cardinal.

Is it not possible that the Holy Father is talking about a deeper theology on how motherhood works in the vocation of marriage?

 

[M-Dent]

I wonder if what the Pope is actually trying to get at is not something “defined” (like priest or deacon or cardinal etc.) but rather a greater recognition for women for what hey already do and are already capable of…

Consider…

What “roles” are women actually excluded from? She may not confect the Eucharist or give absolution etc. - that is, the certain specific sacramental duties peculiar to the ordained priesthood.
But she can counsel, she can distribute the Eucharist to those in need, she can learn and teach theology, she can write, she can advise, she can do all of these things and more.

So - I think that perhaps the pope, in calling for a greater role for women in the Church is actually calling for a greater respect, and a greater emphasis on what women have done in the past and are doing even now.

Interesting. It’s not as if women have had no influence in any matters of importance in the life of the Church. In current times, Mary Ann Glendon is a fair example of one who has offered advice and expertise that many in the Church has drawn from. Including Pope’s.

The Pope may view that too many are unaware of the service many women have given?

 

[clem456]

Mary is the Mother of the Church and the first disciple.
She is the first radically full-of-grace follower of Jesus.
She is the spiritual role model and leader of the whole Church, women and MEN.
And she never held a position of temporal power.

 

[CrossBro]

One of the first things that Pope Francis did was to excommunicate a priest for promoting publically the ordination of women. I see no reason why the standard of excommunicating a priest for public promotion of it should not also apply to lay people.

Don’t hold your breath.

 

[TimothyH]

I wonder if what the Pope is actually trying to get at is not something “defined” (like priest or deacon or cardinal etc.) but rather a greater recognition for women for what hey already do and are already capable of…

Consider…

What “roles” are women actually excluded from? She may not confect the Eucharist or give absolution etc. - that is, the certain specific sacramental duties peculiar to the ordained priesthood.
But she can counsel, she can distribute the Eucharist to those in need, she can learn and teach theology, she can write, she can advise, she can do all of these things and more.

So - I think that perhaps the pope, in calling for a greater role for women in the Church is actually calling for a greater respect, and a greater emphasis on what women have done in the past and are doing even now.

Just some thoughts…

Peace
James

I like this post. What they have done and already do…

Mary is the Mother of the Church and the first disciple.
She is the first radically full-of-grace follower of Jesus.
She is the spiritual role model and leader of the whole Church, women and MEN.
And she never held a position of temporal power.

And I like this post.

A woman played the greatest role in all of human history apart from Jesus himself. Mary was the Theotokos - the Mother of God, encourager of the Messiah to start and complete his mission, and the first to enter heaven after the Messiah himself. Mary is the Premier Apostle and the first Christian. Mary is the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

The entire history of revelation exalts the role of women. Ruth, Judith, Esther, the mother of the seven brothers in 2 Maccabees 7… these were fierce, fearless, loyal and righteous women who were not afraid to die and in some cases saved God’s chosen people single-handedly.

Women have already played a role in our salvation and a woman is already the co-Redemtrix and the Mediatrix. That last sentence will probably start a firestorm but it is what it is.

-Tim-

 

[triumphguy]

Well this thread doesn’t look like it will turn out very well. . . .

So help it out

 

[Elizabeth502]

Abyssinia, Were you correcting me in post 15? I agree with you.

 

[triumphguy]

Actually I don’t see it this way…

To me, it’s not a matter of being “radical” but rather being misguided - and this can occur on both sides.
It strikes me as an emphasis on titles instead of actions…it’s like the Apostles following Jesus and arguing over who will be the greatest in the new kingdom.
Jesus reply to such foolishness is that the one who is the greatest is the one who is the servant of the others.

Men can get off track thinking that they are somehow superior because they can be ordained…and dismiss the contributions of women…and make themselves small because of their pride.
Women can get off track by thinking that they are somehow excluded because they may not be ordained and thus miss opportunities to be of even greater service to God because they are too fixed on a title.

He who is the greatest must be the servant of the others…

We are called to service and our “title” means nothing…

Just some thoughts…

Peace
James

There’s wisdom here.

We already have a thread on women deacons/cardinal etc. so we don;t need to rehash that here.

What roles of women COULD be deepened?

And does that necessarily mean “institutionalized” or turned into an “office”?

Or does it mean that the roles that women play should be seen as more important and more necessary than they are?

For instance, if motherhood was given more respect what would that look like?

I know that for my own kids the most important person in the world is their mother - not me (and I would die for them).

 

[KP3243]

You don’t know that to be a fact. It might very well be but we don’t know for certain.

I am not sure I understand why we would need a position of a deaconess when we have religious sisters.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I am not sure I understand why we would need a position of a deaconess when we have religious sisters.

Religious sisters must be celibate a deaconess would not.

But what is in sich a role as deacon or deaconess? Training, education, acountability and formal blessing of the Church to do ministry. All good stuff.

 

[Church_Man]

Maybe the Pope is trying to say that we should be creative and find ways that women can be more involved in Parish life.

People were upset because the pope washed the feet of women on Holy Thursday. Women are disciples too. (If you look at John 13, Jesus washes the feet of “the disciples”; no where does it mention “the 12” or “the apostles.” As far as we know, Jesus could have washed the feet of women too.

Maybe women could preach at Mass? I know of some women who are exceptional and would do a fantastic job preaching, but right now, for the most part, only ordained men can preach.

And women were deacons in the early Church. The only deacon that St. Paul mentions by name is Phoebe - a woman (Romans 16:1-2). In 1 Timothy 4:11, St. Paul talks about the role of women deacons.

According to ancient liturgical manuscripts, we have rites for the order of male deacons and a separate one for female deacons. According to the manuscripts, women preached, wore stoles and performed sacraments like their male counterparts.

Or maybe the Pope is giving direction. I know of pastors who won’t allow women to do any liturgical role because the pastor feels that these roles are steps to the priesthood and since women can’t be priests, they shouldn’t participate in these roles. So - no female lectors, communion ministers, altar servers or ushers.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I’m not sure what Pope Francis is thinking in the more ecclesiastical view, but on the local level, overwhelmingly there are far too many women in leadership roles already, and far too few men – anywhere except in places like ICKSP parishes, etc.

In point of fact (also), local parishes, have, i.m.o., too much “bureaucracy” on their own. Committees, Schemittees. This “council,” this “committee,” this “ministry.” (I love how someone’s random pet project is allowed to attach the word “ministry” to itself) And invariably, women are directing those, as well.

The most traditional parishes are about one thing: bringing those parish members closer to Our Lord. (What a concept. ) That effort is led by the pastor and any associated priests, is carried out with frequent Masses, devotions, Confession, spiritual direction provided by the ordained, and music which supports all of that and is under the jurisdiction of the pastor, not anyone with separate or overriding power.

When the lines of leadership are clearly drawn like that, and when you have men visibly in those leadership roles, you tend to get well-attended Masses, with approximately even numbers of both sexes. (You don’t get fewer women; you do get more men.) To my knowledge, women are still only about half of the human race.

 

[Chatter163]

Since John Paul II the door has been shut on the ordination of women to Holy Orders.

No, since Jesus Christ the door has been shut. There is no such thing as the ordination of women to holy orders, and there never has been. Blessed John Paul II merely reiterated it in more recent years. It is not like he invented the teaching.

 

[KP3243]

Religious sisters must be celibate a deaconess would not.

But what is in sich a role as deacon or deaconess? Training, education, acountability and formal blessing of the Church to do ministry. All good stuff.

I know men who are in the deaconate and there is a lot of work that goes into preparing for this job and living it out. Not for anything a woman with kids and a husband might find it difficult to minister to this job without putting her family second in some cases - which God would not want her to do. Also, men who are not married before they enter the deaconate remain celibate and never marry.

 

[Just_Lurking]

What roles of women COULD be deepened?

And does that necessarily mean “institutionalized” or turned into an “office”?

I predict that there will be installed women lectors within two years.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I know men who are in the deaconate and there is a lot of work that goes into preparing for this job and living it out. Not for anything a woman with kids and a husband might find it difficult to minister to this job without putting her family second in some cases - which God would not want her to do. Also, men who are not married before they enter the deaconate remain celibate and never marry.

Not every woman has kids or husband. I am thinking especially of empty nesters and widows.

I know this graph is 12 years old but there are certainly fewer women in religious life.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

as of 2013 51,247 religious sisters in United States.

cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

The number has fallen from a million worldwide in 1973 to 710,000 today

Women are great resource for the Church