Pope Francis washes feet

[Brendan_64]

You have been corrected on this before.

Oh really? Where, by whom, and by what scholarly authority?

All I have done is stated what Jesus said and what Paul reiterated. What is there to correct?

Perhaps you are guilty of reading into what I have written, something that isn’t there? Where, for example have I implied disobedience to moral law? Or perhaps you think that something ought to have been added to what Jesus said and St Paul reiterated to qualify their statements?

Love is the core of Christ’s message, and St Paul reiterated this. Love should be the basis for all that we do.

OK then, just so that you cannot accuse me of meaning something that I do not, ley me outline my position on these 2 passages and the importance o f love as clearly as I can.

Jesus gave us the Great Commandment (Mark 12:28-34). The message is clear for us, God has given us eternal love and we are to reciprocate, unconditionally by loving God, and we must do that through extending this love, unconditionally, to our fellow man. We must strive to love our fellow man as Jesus loved us.

Faith, hope and love are theological virtues that come as a gift from God, and through these virtues we will be led back to oneness with God. Of these virtues, love is the greatest, because it is upon love that other virtues are built. In the virtue of faith we put our faith in the Lord, and in the teachings of His Church. In hope, we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour. But the greatest of these is love because love will endure for eternity after faith and hope have been fulfilled when we are one with God.

So the absolute core of what we believe is love and (as in Matthew 22:40) upon love depends all the laws, regulations and teachings of our Church. Indeed the salvation of our very souls depends on our giving of love to others. The keeping of rules, regulations, rituals and traditions will not save us, only love can save us.

 

[Brendan_64]

There is no Church vs. Love. There is Love and there is the Church to tell you WHAT is love and HOW to love. Therefore, there can never be a situation where Love trumps doctrine.

I have never said that at all.

 

[brian614]

And you’re still not answering me.

What is LOVE? Is love being ‘nice’, refusing to correct somebody when he does wrong because, “it would hurt his feelings and so would not be an act of love?”

I hope this helps answer “what is love”

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

[crazzeto]

Perhaps part of the problem is that we can only readily describe love as the acts wrought by love. It’s harder to grasp (I’m not sure if I fully do personally, but I try) the concept that true love is infused by Him who is love.

Described by works, it should always care for the good of the other, for the good of the other. It should, however do what is best for the individual in light of Gods love which will never offend God. This helps give us an easy way to recognize false compassion (for instance).

I’m sure I’m not batting 1000 here, but that’s my effort for now anyway =)

 

[Limosa]

But I like the idea of retaliation instead. Muslim leaders could retaliate by washing the feet of five Christians, or praying for five Christians, or something like that. Christians could respond by donating money to poor Muslims in Bangladesh. Muslims could one-up by sending aid to poor Christians in sub-Saharan Africa. Imagine the escalation…!!

Now THAT is a beautiful idea. Let us one-up each other in expressions of generosity and love!

Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and Taliban-controlled Afghanistan are the most intolerant of Muslim societies on earth. It may be that there are some prelates or “modesty police” in those places who were offended by Pope Francis’ gesture (just as there are conservatives here who have found it shocking). However, in the Muslim countries I have traveled in, I have encountered very different attitudes “on the ground,” and gestures of respect and love are responded to in kind. I frequently wander around cities alone both because I have idiosyncratic touristic interests and I find that my interactions with others are more real and honest than when I am with a group. I am a relatively young woman, I dress very modestly, and I cover my hair. Once I was on the back streets of Cairo waiting for a guard to open up a historic site and I had a conversation with a woman who was also sitting there. “Are you Muslim?” she asked. “No.” “Then why have you covered your hair?” When I explained that it was out of respect, she nodded, smiled broadly, thanked me, and opined that we should all treat each other and each others’ customs with good will and respect. This has not been the only such encounter I have had.

I feel confident that Muslims of good will understand the genuine love, respect, and generosity that a holy man like Pope Francis intended by washing the feet of a Muslim young man and a Muslim young woman. Let us not forget that all twelve of those whose feet he washed were those who have broken Italian law sufficiently gravely that they are now locked up in a detention facility. Moreover, many of them were not Italian (the Muslim girl was Serbian, I believe), and such immigrants to Italy, especially non-Christian immigrants, are constantly demonized in right wing Italian politics (the Northern League would like to see them expelled). They are the modern equivalent of St. Francis’s lepers – maligned, excluded and forgotten.

 

[Limosa]

I didn’t see the faces, because they only gave you the shot of the pope and the foot. But the center is a juvenile detention center. One news reporter said that it goes up to age 21, but that doesn’t sound right to me. In most countries a 21 year old is not a juvenile.

She was 18 when she ran away from home. The meetings in the wood would have taken palce between the time she was 18 and the time she was 21-22. He died in her 3rd or 4th year in the order.

I hesitate to correct you, brother JR, since I have appreciated your historical perspective so very much, but St. Clare was born in 1194, and was thus 32 years old when Francis died in 1226. She would have run away from her family home at age 18 in 1212, so she knew Francis for quite a lot more than 2 or 3 years.

And yes, all of the sources are very clear that Clare ran away from home to join Francis and the brothers, and that he cut her hair, thus signifying her consecration as a kind of friar, although he did send her off to a Benedictine monastery for fear of her (noble) family’s reaction. She was later allowed to form the community of Poor Ladies at San Damiano, the church where Francis received his earliest revelations, and under Clare’s guidance, San Damiano became quite an extraordinary community. Francis visited her there frequently (including in his very last days, on a stretcher). The “picnics” are well attested, too!

I very much appreciate your evocation of “Brother Jacoba” – one of my favorite examples of Francis’s refusal to be bound by the conventional and societal ideas about women of his day. Recently, scholars have suggested that the fresco painting by Simone Martini usually thought to be Clare in the Lower Basilica of Assisi may actually be of Jacoba de Settesoli (among other reasons are the seven suns on the halo). In addition to being the only woman with Francis when he died, she was buried near him along with his closest companions.

Simone Martini, Giacoma de Settesoli

 

[JReducation]

I hesitate to correct you, brother JR, since I have appreciated your historical perspective so very much, but St. Clare was born in 1194, and was thus 32 years old when Francis died in 1226. She would have run away from her family home at age 18 in 1212, so she knew Francis for quite a lot more than 2 or 3 years.

And yes, all of the sources are very clear that Clare ran away from home to join Francis and the brothers, and that he cut her hair, thus signifying her consecration as a kind of friar, although he did send her off to a Benedictine monastery for fear of her (noble) family’s reaction. She was later allowed to form the community of Poor Ladies at San Damiano, the church where Francis received his earliest revelations, and under Clare’s guidance, San Damiano became quite an extraordinary community. Francis visited her there frequently (including in his very last days, on a stretcher). The “picnics” are well attested, too!

I very much appreciate your evocation of “Brother Jacoba” – one of my favorite examples of Francis’s refusal to be bound by the conventional and societal ideas about women of his day. Recently, scholars have suggested that the fresco painting by Simone Martini usually thought to be Clare in the Lower Basilica of Assisi may actually be of Jacoba de Settesoli (among other reasons are the seven suns on the halo). In addition to being the only woman with Francis when he died, she was buried near him along with his closest companions.

Simone Martini, Giacoma de Settesoli

Thank you for the correction. You’re absolutely correct on the year of Clare’s birth. I have no idea why I placed her in 1204.

Now I’m wondering, what did happen in 1204. I’ve got that year fixated in my mind.

 

[clem456]

I hope this helps answer “what is love”

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

My wife’s perspective is instructive for me here.
We have seen Francis several times embracing people who are startlingly handicapped. My wife and sister’s-in-law burst into tears when they saw this. My wife passionately said to me “this is the world I want to live in.” This is the world she hopes for. This is the world that Christ tells us is possible and will in fact be. It contradicts the world where power and position rule the day, people make a God of themselves and bully the weak, or drive right past the forgettable among us. Her tears are not an attempt to validate the loving action of the Pope as some would claim. To the contrary, the Pope’s actions are a sign of loving hope and allow her to release all that is rotten with the world. If Francis has time for us, we can certainly have time for one another without fearing loss of…whatever.

A pope washing the feet of people who are in need of it demonstrates love at the service of the greatest doctrine: “Love one another as I have love you”. Love for the sake of love, nothing else. This love is not just an emotional display unhinged from truth, It is putting the office of the Papacy at the service of others. It is ordered to the the highest goods… living the Gospel and the worship of God. And even though it may seem to contradict custom or tradition or rubric, it does not detract from any of that one bit, but puts it in it’s proper perspective. It is our understanding and attachments that are detracted from.

 

[JReducation]

My wife’s perspective is instructive for me here.
We have seen Francis several times embracing people who are startlingly handicapped. My wife and sister’s-in-law burst into tears when they saw this. My wife passionately said to me “this is the world I want to live in.” This is the world she hopes for. This is the world that Christ tells us is possible and will in fact be. It contradicts the world where power and position rule the day, people make a God of themselves and bully the weak, or drive right past the forgettable among us. Her tears are not an attempt to validate the loving action of the Pope as some would claim. To the contrary, the Pope’s actions are a sign of loving hope and allow her to release all that is rotten with the world. If Francis has time for us, we can certainly have time for one another without fearing loss of…whatever.

A pope washing the feet of people who are in need of it demonstrates love at the service of the greatest doctrine: “Love one another as I have love you”. Love for the sake of love, nothing else. This love is not just an emotional display unhinged from truth, It is putting the office of the Papacy at the service of others. It is ordered to the the highest goods… living the Gospel and the worship of God. And even though it may seem to contradict custom or tradition or rubric, it does not detract from any of that one bit, but puts it in it’s proper perspective. It is our understanding and attachments that are detracted from.

I agree with your wife when she says that she wants to live in this kind of world. I believe the fact that the Holy Father even thought of asking where he could find the downtrodden is a sign of a man who deeply identifies with the poor, the voiceless, the sinner and those whom we don’t envy. Such identification requires great detachment from self and from the opinion of others. Sometimes, our concern over opinions can severely cripple us. We’re looking at man who refuses to be crippled.

 

[otjm]

During the Irish Famine Turkey sent food and aid to Ireland while Britain allowed the Irish to die of starvation.

http://cdncms.todayszaman.com/todayszaman/2012/01/29/ottoman.jpg
Sultan Abdülmecid who sent money and 3 ships full of food.

!) Thanks - I did not know this.

1. any possibility this was not an act of faith, but a political act (sorry, some see me as a cynic)?

 

[Mariem2]

!) Thanks - I did not know this.

1. any possibility this was not an act of faith, but a political act (sorry, some see me as a cynic)?

It was an act of charity, surpassed by this: choctawnation.com/history/choctaw-nation-history/choctaws-helped-starving-irish-in-1847-this-act-shaped-tribal-culture/

 

[Brendan_64]

It was an act of charity, surpassed by this: choctawnation.com/history/choctaw-nation-history/choctaws-helped-starving-irish-in-1847-this-act-shaped-tribal-culture/

Very often in life, it is the people who have the least who give the most, and the people who have the most who give the least.

 

[Mariem2]

Very often in life, it is the people who have the least who give the most, and the people who have the most who give the least.

Indeed. How many of us actually give **without **counting the cost? I’m so glad our new Pope is focusing on the poor and have every confidence that he will keep intact the deposit of faith, irrespective of whose feet are washed.

 

[clem456]

Very often in life, it is the people who have the least who give the most, and the people who have the most who give the least.

Our pastor, at our weekly bible study made an observation about the widow’s mite that I had never absorbed. He noted that not only was the widow poor and still gave, but it is significant that the Gospel says she put in two coins, when one coin might have been just as laudable.

 

[crazzeto]

My wife’s perspective is instructive for me here.
We have seen Francis several times embracing people who are startlingly handicapped. My wife and sister’s-in-law burst into tears when they saw this. My wife passionately said to me “this is the world I want to live in.” This is the world she hopes for. This is the world that Christ tells us is possible and will in fact be. It contradicts the world where power and position rule the day, people make a God of themselves and bully the weak, or drive right past the forgettable among us. Her tears are not an attempt to validate the loving action of the Pope as some would claim. To the contrary, the Pope’s actions are a sign of loving hope and allow her to release all that is rotten with the world. If Francis has time for us, we can certainly have time for one another without fearing loss of…whatever.

A pope washing the feet of people who are in need of it demonstrates love at the service of the greatest doctrine: “Love one another as I have love you”. Love for the sake of love, nothing else. This love is not just an emotional display unhinged from truth, It is putting the office of the Papacy at the service of others. It is ordered to the the highest goods… living the Gospel and the worship of God. And even though it may seem to contradict custom or tradition or rubric, it does not detract from any of that one bit, but puts it in it’s proper perspective. It is our understanding and attachments that are detracted from.

The sad thing that sort of makes another point though… I saw a Meme today (catholic memes, www.catholicmemes.com highly recommended) with side by side images of Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis doing the same exact works. Kissing and hugging the lame, kissing a baby you name it. In fact I’m sure most good (recent especially) popes have performed similar works. Yet Pope Francis is really built up even more than the others.

I will say there is some difference, Pope Francis perhaps takes it the next step by rejecting personal luxury. I think there is merit in this too. But what, do we doubt the sincerity of the other Popes?

I was going to link the image, but sadly it seems like this particular one was only on their facebook site.

 

[Mariem2]

But what, do we doubt the sincerity of the other Popes

No, we don’t doubt their sincerity. Our priests, bishops, cardinals and popes have been preaching about social injustice for as long as I can remember but that kind of sermon gets very little media coverage. Catholic charities throughout the world leave all others in the ha’penny place and get very little media coverage. If Pope Francis hadn’t mentioned the poor in his first public address, the media would have ignored what he said and we would be debating the colour of his shoes. Let’s be glad that this pope has managed to focus attention on helping the poor.

 

[crazzeto]

No, we don’t doubt their sincerity. Our priests, bishops, cardinals and popes have been preaching about social injustice for as long as I can remember but that kind of sermon gets very little media coverage. Catholic charities throughout the world leave all others in the ha’penny place and get very little media coverage. If Pope Francis hadn’t mentioned the poor in his first public address, the media would have ignored what he said and we would be debating the colour of his shoes. Let’s be glad that this pope has managed to focus attention on helping the poor.

I suppose I could have been more specific, the ‘we’ meant more us as a culture. This includes the media and the people who fawn over Pope Francis who also called Pope Benedict XVI a nazi.

 

[Mariem2]

I suppose I could have been more specific, the ‘we’ meant more us as a culture. This includes the media and the people who fawn over Pope Francis who also called Pope Benedict XVI a nazi.

What culture? The media like to hype up a story to boost their viewing figures or feed into whatever agenda they are pushing at a given time. We Catholics can’t control that. Pope John Paul II usually got good press because his focus happened to coincide with the interests of the prevailing powers in the West and their sycphantic media. I don’t remember many “Traditional” Catholics complaining about all his media exposure or the way they did a “personality cult” job on him. History will be kinder to Pope Benedict than the current crop of journalists and commentators.

Rather than nitpicking about whose feet are washed, let’s just pray that God will send the Archangel Michael to protect our Pope and the Holy Spirit to inspire him.

 

[JReducation]

Rather than nitpicking about whose feet are washed, let’s just pray that God will send the Archangel Michael to protect our Pope and the Holy Spirit to inspire him.

Too late. Jesus already promised this to Peter.

Let’s pray that the Pope will be open to the Holy Spirit.

 

[choliks]

I was reflecting on the imagery of Pope Francis washing the feet of the Muslim girl in the detention center. A Jesuit Pope washing the feet and serving a person from a different faith. I thought I’ve seen that scenario somewhere before. Then I remembered this Jesuit:

youtube.com/watch?v=leieHTWlon0 (watch the succeeding parts if you wish)

Like the Holy Father, he served and gave his life to people who are mostly Buddhists.