Pope Francis washes feet

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This is a much more interesting debate than I originally thought. So the facts are that there’s no clear link between the washing rite and the 12 Apostles, either in Scripture, the rubrics, or actual practice in many places. But the rubrics do clearly indicate that it’s restricted to men. The two ways to interpret that are that it should be connected to the 12 Apostles or that the rubric is unnecessary. If the latter, Pope Francis should’ve abolished it. If the former, it should be much more explicit. Someone suggested that it should be the bishop who washes the feet of 12 priests.

The Vatican is trying to say that the circumstances demanded a deviation from the rules. But if the bar for deviating is so low, the rule really has no force and such a justification undermines liturgical laws in general. Better to abolish it explicitly.

But there’s a larger debate. Pope Francis, it’s suggested, is not a stickler for liturgical rules and tradition. He seems to believe those are all in the service of service and that we shouldn’t allow liturgical rules and traditions to hamper the new evangelization. For those of use who are sticklers for liturgical rules and tradition, it’s a hard lesson. We personally may not like it but I think it’s helpful that we have a pope who keeps us grounded to what’s ultimately important.
I admire your openness despite your personal inclinations. It is indeed commendable.

This debate (all over the net) has troubled me because it feels very much like straining out a gnat. Yes, rules are important, yes tradition is important, but legalism seems to me a greater danger than the fears the Church will disintegrate because Pope Francis didn’t cross the ‘t’ at exact height specified by the penmanship book. Rules are usually meant to help us achieve a goal but when things get to the point where they distract from the goal, then we have a problem. I’m yet to see a debate on the POINT of the Pope’s act.
 
Jesus told us very specifically in the Gospel why He washed His disciples feet.
Well lets see what Jesus said as to the reasons behind washing feet.

Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 B]Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

All I see is that Jesus told the Disciples that they should wash one anothers feet and they will be blessed for doing so…

What else is there? He didn’t say for the Disciples to wash anyone elses feet besides each others, nor did he give a reason as to why they should wash one anothers feet except that they would be blessed for doing it.

Am I leaving out some essential piece of the passage that says something else?
 
I absolutely agree on no knee jerk reaction. But it is true that while liturgical experimentation may have 'peaked ’ in many places in the 1990s, there are areas of the country where it is still going on, even after the last 8 years, even in the face of the BISHOP giving guidelines, etc. The priests just ‘wink’ and keep doing ‘what the people (supposedly) WANT us to do’.

I was away for nearly 4 HALCYON years in another part of the country, and when I had to return I have borne as a cross the fact that things back here have NOT changed for the better and continue on in the “Spirit of Vatican 2”. . .

I know that for very many, things will not change for the worse, or will at least remain static. But in some places, things WILL change, because even when in other areas they improved, some places did not. Where I am, sadly, will probably always be a place where ‘what the people want’ will trump what the Church teaches, especially in liturgy. . .
I am sorry that your area is still having problems. I also suspect that if each and every place where the Mass is offered were reviewed, there would be still a number of priests who vary the rubrics for whatever reasons. It is, however, a process that is going to be (somewhat) self correcting if for no other reason than deaths and retirement. The younger priests (and I am counting those, from age 45 (or maybe even 50) on downward for the most part seem to understand “Say the black and do the red” as not simply one option among many.

My parish just was assigned a new pastor, only ordained 2 years when we got him and would that I could clone about 1000 of him and spread them around!

And I can go south to one of the more liberal cities and find a parish that still has a (for lack of a better term) somewhat laissez faire attitude. Is he a good priest? I can’t answer that, nor is that specifically on the table; but his sense of the solemnity of the Mass seems a bit lacking.

What I was really trying to get at is that a) things are improving; b) sometimes we get so caught up in our surroundings we don’t see that; and c) I am not fearful if the Pope sees fit to modify the rubrics; my first question is, what is the truth (and Truth) being expressed here that I may not have seen? I think Brother JR’s post is an excellent explanation that we tend to get caught up in linear/tunnel vision and presume that what we see is all there is to see. As Brother indicates; there is (at least) two messages in the footwashing; if we only see one, perhaps what we need is something that challenges our presumption that what we see is all there is to see.

I am not one seeking changes in the rubrics. Having said that, I am also not fearful in the least should there be changes; if others seek to go astray, I am sorry for them, but also realize that is part of human nature (and evil, should it extend that far). And I don’t think that changes to rubrics is going to set off an explosion of experimentation, largely for reasons set out above.
 
During my tenure in South America what I found is that they are much more relaxed about liturgy than we are in the northern hemisphere. From my experience it has nothing to do with disobedience or some other negative trait. In South America, faith has a very strong affective component not found in the northern hemisphere. In the northern hemisphere the affective dimension of faith is less pronounced and the intellectual stands out. The difference is that they come from the heart to the head. We go from the head to the heart.

I would like to add one more thing. This pope is definitely very Franciscan. Franciscans are very heart oriented, if there is such a term.
From a philosophical perspective of law that has been explained as the Mediterranean perspective as opposed to the Germanic perspective.

The Germanic perspective tends towards an absolutist approach - “What is not permitted is not allowed”; and (as you noted) the Mediterranean perspective tends much more towards “what is not prohibited is allowed”.

The United States, in particular, tends twoard the Germanic approach to law. And when they are confronted with a Mediterranean approach, they are very uncomfortable, to put it mildly.

A minor example is the dubium Francis Cardinal George submitted some years ago about the posture required as one returns to one’s bench after receiveing Communion; the GIRM seemed to indicte that one was to remain standing. Cardinal Arinze’s response was much more of a Mediterranean approach, that one could stand, kneel (which had been the accepted posture both after and before the OF ws enacted) or sit. He siad something to the effect that it was not the intent to be that rigorous in the law (here, the GIRM). Note: that is not meant to say Cardinal George was taking such a position; I think he was the person who would submit a dubium because of his position in USCCB or such, and the question was widespread.
 
Well lets see what Jesus said as to the reasons behind washing feet.

Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 B]Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
All I see is that Jesus told the Disciples that they should wash one anothers feet and they will be blessed for doing so…

What else is there? He didn’t say for the Disciples to wash anyone elses feet besides each others, nor did he give a reason as to why they should wash one anothers feet except that they would be blessed for doing it.

Am I leaving out some essential piece of the passage that says something else?

I would suspect that the Church, being contextualist rather than literalist in reading the Gospels, would say that the washing of feet is more symbolic than literal.
 
If the washing of the feet is merely a sign of service to the community then there is no reason to only wash 12 sets of feet. If the number should be limited to 12 then that means that there is more to it.
Precisely. We have several different possibilities here:
  1. The washing of feet only represents service.
  2. The washing of feet only represents an historical reality of what Jesus did to His Apostles.
  3. It represents both.
Pope Francis’s having washed the feet of females means that nos. 2 and 3 are moot. 1 is the only possibility. However, there are two other kinks in this, namely, that he only washed the feet of twelve, and that this ceremony occurred on Holy Thursday of all days, the very day when Jesus did this to His Apostles.

So, is this about Apostles, or isn’t it? I wish this one little morsel would be settled.

No one thinks the Pope broke any kind of divine law, but this sends very confusing symbols, and that is regrettable. If the mandatum is going to include females–and in principle I have no problem with that–then, symbologically, it is fabulously confusing that twelve people are chosen (the number of Apostles), and that this liturgical ceremony occurs on Holy Thursday (the day when this actually happened in the Bible).
 
John 13:3-6
3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, 4 rose from supper, laid aside his garments, and girded himself with a towel. 5 Then he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which he was girded.
How many people ate the Last Supper - we don’t really know. In Matthew’s Gospel it says that Jesus was reclining at table with the Twelve (Matthew 26:20) however in an earlier verse it’s the disciples who ask where Jesus would like to celebrate the Passover.

In the various Gospels were women included as disciples?

So, it’s possible that Christ not only washed the Apostle’s feet, but all those who were present, and that some of them were women. We don’t know how many were present. We do know that he was with the Twelve, but was it ONLY the Twelve?

We DO know, however that he washed Judas’s feet, knowing that He was to be betrayed
2 And during supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God, 4 rose from supper, …
… not just those who would remain true to the end - Oh that would be 1 Apostle, John, and the “women.”

So why anyone thinks the Washing of Feet is anything BUT a symbol of Christ’s humility is beyond me: it gives NO status at all to those whose feet were washed.
 
Precisely. We have several different possibilities here:
  1. The washing of feet only represents service.
  2. The washing of feet only represents an historical reality of what Jesus did to His Apostles.
  3. It represents both.
Pope Francis’s having washed the feet of females means that nos. 2 and 3 are moot. 1 is the only possibility. However, there are two other kinks in this, namely, that he only washed the feet of twelve, and that this ceremony occurred on Holy Thursday of all days, the very day when Jesus did this to His Apostles.

So, is this about Apostles, or isn’t it? I wish this one little morsel would be settled.

No one thinks the Pope broke any kind of divine law, but this sends very confusing symbols, and that is regrettable. If the mandatum is going to include females–and in principle I have no problem with that–then, symbologically, it is fabulously confusing that twelve people are chosen (the number of Apostles), and that this liturgical ceremony occurs on Holy Thursday (the day when this actually happened in the Bible).
Well… I guess I don’t see why the fact that there were twelve or that it occured on the day Jesus did this is a problem. The Pope used this to represent the importance of leaders leading through serving others, just as Jesus did on Holy Thursday by washing the feet of the twelve people with him. So why does doing it on Holy Thursday and having twelve people need to be anything more than a representation of Christ’s original act? 🤷
 
Precisely. We have several different possibilities here:
  1. The washing of feet only represents service.
  2. The washing of feet only represents an historical reality of what Jesus did to His Apostles.
  3. It represents both.
Pope Francis’s having washed the feet of females means that nos. 2 and 3 are moot. 1 is the only possibility. However, there are two other kinks in this, namely, that he only washed the feet of twelve, and that this ceremony occurred on Holy Thursday of all days, the very day when Jesus did this to His Apostles.

So, is this about Apostles, or isn’t it? I wish this one little morsel would be settled.

No one thinks the Pope broke any kind of divine law, but this sends very confusing symbols, and that is regrettable. If the mandatum is going to include females–and in principle I have no problem with that–then, symbologically, it is fabulously confusing that twelve people are chosen (the number of Apostles), and that this liturgical ceremony occurs on Holy Thursday (the day when this actually happened in the Bible).
Here is a thought that came to me. The Eucharist, instituted on that very same occasion, was certainly “about the Apostles” but just as certainly was not limited to be about only the Apostles. It struck me that the same could be said about the washing of the feet and what I understand to be the primary message, i.e. to be of service.
 
I would suspect that the Church, being contextualist rather than literalist in reading the Gospels, would say that the washing of feet is more symbolic than literal.
I was responding to a post that said **Jesus stated very specifically why he washed the feet of the disciples. **] According to the verse, Jesus didn’t say why he washed the feet. He told the disciples they would be blessed if they washed the feet of each other.

Thats all. It bothers me somewhat when people put words in other peoples mouths, particularly in this area, and project their own interpretations as being facts.
 
The directive to wash the feet of men, and only men, was found in paragraph 51 of PASCHALIS SOLLEMNITATIS, The Preparation And Celebration Of The Easter Feasts, Given at Rome, at the Offices of the Congregation for Divine Worship, January 16, 1988. The English translation of paragraph 51 reads:
  1. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came "not to be served, but to serve. This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.
The document was originally circulated in Latin, and the word translated into English as ‘men’ is ‘vir’, literally ‘adult men’. Barely a year ago, an alert CA Forum Member also referenced the Sacramentary which reads:

The men vir] who have been chosen are led by the ministers to chairs prepared in a suitable place. Then the priest (removing his chasuble if necessary) goes to each man. With the help of the ministers, he pours water over each one’s feet and dries them.

Pope Francis had already broken with that instruction in 2005, when he washed the feet of women at Buenos Aires’ Sarda maternity hospital. It’s no surprise that he did it again yesterday.

I just went to the Vatican’s website to search for Paschalis Sollemnitatis. The document appears to have been taken down.

So it appears I must relax my opposition to having my (female) feet washed by the priest, as I did a decade ago when I refused because of Paschalis Sollemnitatis and the Sacramentary. However I still see no instruction from the Vatican which approves of a group-participation foot-bath, so commonly practiced in American parishes.
 
Thank you, Father for allowing us to discuss what we do not yet fully understand…Why do Roman Catholics not have a field manual (perhaps written in red & black) to follow and the discipline to follow it? Surely with only five levels and a vow of obedience and a discernment towards Love …:confused:

Let us pray…especially for those who believe without understanding…they have truly been blessed…😉
 
VATICAN CITY (AP) – Pope Francis has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus on serving the world’s poorest, but he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.
Francis’ decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls - a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic - during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict’s papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church.
More…
hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_VATICAN_POPE_TRADITIONALISTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-03-29-16-43-17
 
John 13:3-6

How many people ate the Last Supper - we don’t really know. In Matthew’s Gospel it says that Jesus was reclining at table with the Twelve (Matthew 26:20) however in an earlier verse it’s the disciples who ask where Jesus would like to celebrate the Passover.

In the various Gospels were women included as disciples?

So, it’s possible that Christ not only washed the Apostle’s feet, but all those who were present, and that some of them were women. We don’t know how many were present. We do know that he was with the Twelve, but was it ONLY the Twelve?

We DO know, however that he washed Judas’s feet, knowing that He was to be betrayed

… not just those who would remain true to the end - Oh that would be 1 Apostle, John, and the “women.”

So why anyone thinks the Washing of Feet is anything BUT a symbol of Christ’s humility is beyond me: it gives NO status at all to those whose feet were washed.
If there were others present, but the authors only wrote about the Apostles, then doesn’t that mean either the others didn’t have their feet washed, or if they did, the authors didn’t think it was too important? Clearly the authors were trying to communicate something by writing that he washed the Apostles’ feet.
Well… I guess I don’t see why the fact that there were twelve or that it occured on the day Jesus did this is a problem. The Pope used this to represent the importance of leaders leading through serving others, just as Jesus did on Holy Thursday by washing the feet of the twelve people with him. So why does doing it on Holy Thursday and having twelve people need to be anything more than a representation of Christ’s original act? 🤷
12 is the number of the Apostles. Having women included “among the twelve” at a foot washing ceremony on Holy Thursday is confusing symbolism. It breaks no divine law, but it is confusing symbolism.
Here is a thought that came to me. The Eucharist, instituted on that very same occasion, was certainly “about the Apostles” but just as certainly was not limited to be about only the Apostles. It struck me that the same could be said about the washing of the feet and what I understand to be the primary message, i.e. to be of service.
Cogent argument, that, and I won’t argue against it, but having the number of twelve and including women in it is still confusing symbologically. If the total number was 13, or 11, or any other number but 12, this could be argued even better. But it was 12 at this event.

So… what was the message? If service was the message, why was the number of participants 12? As I said, this is confusing symbolism. About Apostles, or not about Apostles? This is regrettable.

Some people might say some are reading too far in to this, and I understand that concern. However, the number 12 has profound associations with the Christian feast of Holy Thursday, and the fact that 12 and not some other number was chosen for participants in the mandatum rite was almost certainly a conscious choice.

It seems we have no clarity here, and that is something that would help greatly, since, whether he wants to or not, the Pope is setting precedent not only for liturgy, but for everything. If this was 1245, no one would care, since there was no television and internet. But now that there is, every public act of the Pope, every act of the Pope that could possibly be recorded in image form, has meaning, simply because it is recorded.

The Pope can exercise his ministry in any way he wants, as long as he upholds faith and morals. Fine, I accept that. I’m not saying he can’t. I’m just saying that little things add up and have unintended consequences. Already people are hailing this as a sign that “women’s ordination” is coming. That’s impossible, of course, but why give that base ammunition?

This is why National Catholic Reporter is rejoicing. They don’t see this as a sign of service, they see it as a step towards women’s ordination. Even they see and acknowledge–if only in subtext–the association between washing 12 people’s feet on Holy Thursday and the Apostles. Again, it won’t happen, but in this day and age of instant communication, a public figure’s actions are endlessly dissected. And people can say, “Women’s ordination will never happen,” but do you think people listen to that?
 
*VATICAN CITY (AP) – Pope Francis has won over many hearts and minds with his simple style and focus on serving the world’s poorest, but he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.
Francis’ decision to disregard church law and wash the feet of two girls - a Serbian Muslim and an Italian Catholic - during a Holy Thursday ritual has become something of the final straw, evidence that Francis has little or no interest in one of the key priorities of Benedict’s papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church*
.

but he has devastated traditionalist Catholics who adored his predecessor, Benedict XVI, for restoring much of the traditional pomp to the papacy.

sweeping and, to my non-traditionalist mind, very unfair generalization and exaggeration

**Francis’ decision to disregard church law **

Brother JR has pointed out the inaccuracy, nay, the ridiculousness, of this phrase countless times in several other threads here

one of the key priorities of Benedict’s papacy: reviving the pre-Vatican II traditions of the Catholic Church

all I can say is “sez who?”

In short, typical sensational article in the secular press
 
My Baloney Detector immediately jumped into the Red Zone but I’ve got the one with the automatic one second cut-off. So now, I won’t have to worry about getting another one.

“final blow” Next week, be on the lookout for the final, final blow, to be followed by the… I think you get the idea.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ed
 
The inclusion of women in the rite is problematic for some because it could be seen as an opening of sorts to women’s ordination. The Catholic Church restricts the priesthood to men, arguing that Jesus and his 12 apostles were male.
As I said, everything has unintended consequences…

You can say they’re wrong, and you’d be right, but perception is everything. Symbolism is everything.
 
However, the secular presses desire to see womenpriests happen colors their view of everything the church does. At some point you can’t control the perception of the people with the fun-house mirror glasses on.
 
However, the secular presses desire to see womenpriests happen colors their view of everything the church does. At some point you can’t control the perception of the people with the fun-house mirror glasses on.
Yes, but why give them ammunition?

I’m not saying that was the Pope’s intention, not nearly, but that is the cold hard fact of what has actually happened.
Pope and dads set examples whether they want to or not. If I have dessert despite not having finished my supper, my kids do not experience that family rule as something presumably oriented to their welfare, but rather, as an imposition to be borne until they, too, are old enough to make and break the rules. Now, none will dispute that Pope Francis has, by washing the feet of women at his Holy Thursday Mass, set an example. The question is, what kind of example has he set?
canonlawblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/popes-like-dads-dont-have-a-choice-in-the-matter/
 
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