Pope Francis washes feet

[Mike30]

When I first posted this thread I had no idea that everyone and I mean everyone would automatically jump to the conclusion thatI was speaking about the Holy Father washing women’s feet
I even commented that I found it interesting that he chose to include non Christians in the ritual which to me is much more significant than if he washed women’s feet
Yet that aspect has been almost completely ignored in the frenzy that erupted over women and whether or not the Holy Father had the authority to include women in the ritual.
Simply amazing.

 

[McCall1981]

Read the Gospels. Very seriously. Jesus threw over traditions right and left, He cared about loving one another. That is what the Church is. If you doubt the Pope now, you have separated yourself by your own belief in yourself, instead of trust in the Holy Spirit. Instead, consider that what you thought of the most importance might be far less important than service, above and below.

I doubt the Pope is going to be celebrating a clown Mass anytime soon, or revamping Liturgy yet again. He wants us to follow Him on the narrow path.

God gives us what and whom we need when we need them. Right now, we seem to be in need of Pope Francis. Trust God more than yourself.

I do hope that the Liturgy etc is left alone, but for me the Liturgy and small t traditions fall in the “I may not like it, but the Pope can do what he wants” catagory. He may have a different pontifical “style”, but thats something that is ultimately ok.

What I worry about are the big T Traditions. Francis certainly has not touched these yet, but the fear is that he will. I appreciate the Vatican’s explanation that the foot washing is intended to be seen in light of “service”, not apostolic annointing, because then at least technically this was not a move towards women priests. But they know as well as we do that this is exactly how many people will (often purposely) choose to take it.

What it comes down to for me is this. Generally speaking, I think the Church is too divided between “liberals” who serve the poor but dont hold to orthodoxy, and “conservatives” who hold to orthodoxy but are not involved enough socially (I know Im making sweeping generalizations here, but you know what I mean). My HOPE for Pope Francis is that he will be like Saint Francis, who for me embodies the best of both of those worlds, passion for serving others AND orthodoxy.

If Pope Francis could do this, he could help to heal the Church within, and be a very effective evangelizer out in the world. The problem for me is that so far I feel like we’ve only seen one side, the social service side. Im hoping with all my heart that the orthodox side will come too (and certainly it still could, Im trying very hard to stay hopful). But to this point, in my opinion we havent seen it, so I have strong fear of whether we will. Believe me, I would love nothing more than to see that my fears were wholly unfounded.

 

[Lucky7]

When I first posted this thread I had no idea that everyone and I mean everyone would automatically jump to the conclusion thatI was speaking about the Holy Father washing women’s feet
I even commented that I found it interesting that he chose to include non Christians in the ritual which to me is much more significant than if he washed women’s feet
Yet that aspect has been almost completely ignored in the frenzy that erupted over women and whether or not the Holy Father had the authority to include women in the ritual.
Simply amazing.

I would agree with you. The inclusion of non-Catholics is much more significant. Similarly, the response (from I think the Vatican?) that was posted here (or was it another thread? lol) only focuses on the fact that they were women.

 

[JustaServant]

First, and I don’t know how many are aware of this, it was the traditionalists who are not in union with Rome, who sought the media attention. They contacted the AP. The media wouldn’t know a traditional Catholic from Flip Wilson’s First Church of What’s Happenin’ Now (for all you baby boomers out there). Drudge picked it up, which is why it is now all over the 'net. The owner of the blog Rorate Caeli now has more hits to his site than ever before.
Second, it is the traditionalists NOT IN UNION WITH ROME, who are making the fuss. They are teetering on the edge of insanity. Don’t believe that? Read the comments section of the above website or FE. If it doesn’t make you sick, I don’t know what will. They sound more like the wide-eyed posters of the CARM forum. They are certainly not “struggling”. I literally cannot post what I have read the last few days because, not only does it violate CAF rules, it violates common decency.
Thirdly, why not focus instead on the tradtional Catholics who are in union with Rome, who can lead the Church,* in union with our new Pope *into revitalizing the Faith.
Haters will always hate, its the only thing they know how to produce.
Faithful tradtional Catholics produce something other.

 

[Lucky7]

I do hope that the Liturgy etc is left alone, but for me the Liturgy and small t traditions fall in the “I may not like it, but the Pope can do what he wants” catagory. He may have a different pontifical “style”, but thats something that is ultimately ok.

What I worry about are the big T Traditions. Francis certainly has not touched these yet, but the fear is that he will. I appreciate the Vatican’s explanation that the foot washing is intended to be seen in light of “service”, not apostolic annointing, because then at least technically this was not a move towards women priests. But they know as well as we do that this is exactly how many people will (often purposely) choose to take it.

What it comes down to for me is this. Generally speaking, I think the Church is too divided between “liberals” who serve the poor but dont hold to orthodoxy, and “conservatives” who hold to orthodoxy but are not involved enough socially (I know Im making sweeping generalizations here, but you know what I mean). My HOPE for Pope Francis is that he will be like Saint Francis, who for me embodies the best of both of those worlds, passion for serving others AND orthodoxy.

If Pope Francis could do this, he could help to heal the Church within, and be a very effective evangelizer out in the world. The problem for me is that so far I feel like we’ve only seen one side, the social service side. Im hoping with all my heart that the orthodox side will come too (and certainly it still could, Im trying very hard to stay hopful). But to this point, in my opinion we havent seen it, so I have strong fear of whether we will. Believe me, I would love nothing more than to see that my fears were wholly unfounded.

You are reading my mind, my friend. Get out of my head! LOL

 

[Lormar]

First, and I don’t know how many are aware of this, it was the traditionalists who are not in union with Rome, who sought the media attention. They contacted the AP. The media wouldn’t know a traditional Catholic from Flip Wilson’s First Church of What’s Happenin’ Now (for all you baby boomers out there). Drudge picked it up, which is why it is now all over the 'net. The owner of the blog Rorate Caeli now has more hits to his site than ever before.

Just A Servant, is that true? I don’t mean your first sentence, but that they were the ones who contacted the AP? I wondered last night about why the AP all of a sudden had an interest in traditionals. It seemed odd to me that an AP journalist would write such a provocative article.

 

[graciew]

What do you mean exactly by St Francis embodiying orthodoxy? I am asking to try and understand your fears and see if we can deal with them one by one.
I am argentinean,so I´ve seen our Pope in action for years,and he has been as catholic as you would want the best catholic to be. We are not used to such divisions down there in this sense,there is no time… there is much poverty and he needed every available hand… He has done nothing to make anybody tremble or fear ,but the corrupt,nos us his Church. Peace.Ask if I can help…

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I would agree with you. The inclusion of non-Catholics is much more significant. Similarly, the response (from I think the Vatican?) that was posted here (or was it another thread? lol) only focuses on the fact that they were women.

Exactly. I trust the Holy Father, but would appreciate catechesis on this point.

 

[JustaServant]

Just A Servant, is that true? I don’t mean your first sentence, but that they were the ones who contacted the AP? I wondered last night about why the AP all of a sudden had an interest in traditionals. It seemed odd to me that an AP journalist would write such a provocative article.

From the blog:

[We thank readers coming from the AP, Drudge Report, Vatican Insider, Fox News, the Washington Post and numerous other news organizations around the world. Naturally, we do not think anything that has recently happened is a “final blow for traditionalists”.]

There are also various hi-fivings among the comments sections there. Feel free to look, for me its like sifting through a landfill.
Anything to discredit the Catholic Church the media will eat up like a cat on tuna.

 

[agnes_therese]

When I first posted this thread I had no idea that everyone and I mean everyone would automatically jump to the conclusion thatI was speaking about the Holy Father washing women’s feet
I even commented that I found it interesting that he chose to include non Christians in the ritual which to me is much more significant than if he washed women’s feet
Yet that aspect has been almost completely ignored in the frenzy that erupted over women and whether or not the Holy Father had the authority to include women in the ritual.
Simply amazing.

And here I always thought that part of being Catholic was recognizing the authority of the Pope. There seem to be a lot of people here who suddenly – specifically, just since the election of Pope Francis – think that’ s not the case.

 

[Mariem2]

And here I always thought that part of being Catholic was recognizing the authority of the Pope. There seem to be a lot of people here who suddenly – specifically, just since the election of Pope Francis – think that’ s not the case.

+1

 

[Lucky7]

To me, there’s a big difference between puzzling over something a Pope does – not understanding it, wondering what the background/justification is – on the one hand, and on the other, saying “The Pope is wrong, I know better.”

Has anyone actually said the latter?

 

[maximus]

Going back to ammunition: the secular press misinterprets or twists everything the Church does. When the Pope washed only priests’ feet we were out of touch misogynists. Now that he has washed two teen girls’ feet we are just waiting for the pink chasabules to start ordaining women. Who can win?

I guess some people out there actually think there will be a day where a Pope would wear pink regalia for some S.G. Komen promo or throw official Papal condoms from the Pope mobile when he visits Africa.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I do hope that the Liturgy etc is left alone, but for me the Liturgy and small t traditions fall in the “I may not like it, but the Pope can do what he wants” catagory. He may have a different pontifical “style”, but thats something that is ultimately ok.

What I worry about are the big T Traditions. Francis certainly has not touched these yet, but the fear is that he will. I appreciate the Vatican’s explanation that the foot washing is intended to be seen in light of “service”, not apostolic annointing, because then at least technically this was not a move towards women priests. But they know as well as we do that this is exactly how many people will (often purposely) choose to take it.

What it comes down to for me is this. Generally speaking, I think the Church is too divided between “liberals” who serve the poor but dont hold to orthodoxy, and “conservatives” who hold to orthodoxy but are not involved enough socially (I know Im making sweeping generalizations here, but you know what I mean). My HOPE for Pope Francis is that he will be like Saint Francis, who for me embodies the best of both of those worlds, passion for serving others AND orthodoxy.

If Pope Francis could do this, he could help to heal the Church within, and be a very effective evangelizer out in the world. The problem for me is that so far I feel like we’ve only seen one side, the social service side. Im hoping with all my heart that the orthodox side will come too (and certainly it still could, Im trying very hard to stay hopful). But to this point, in my opinion we havent seen it, so I have strong fear of whether we will. Believe me, I would love nothing more than to see that my fears were wholly unfounded.

Yes, yes, yes. EXACTLY what I think. I am perfectly willing to wait; it hasn’t been THAT long. . .but the media just harps and harps on the ‘one note’ social-justice and tries to imply that Pope Francis’ own personal (and Jesuit) sensitivities are ONLY related to social justice and that previous Popes were not, and that ANYBODY who questions not Pope Francis per se, but the media interpretations thereof, are automatically ‘anti-social justice’ and ‘pomp loving, hateful, greedy swine’.

 

[josethomas]

A Priest, Bishop or Pope should work as alter christus. After all Christ was a male. The laity including women would prefer to see the acts of Christ manifest in him. A priest should always be a celebate male who would represent Christ to the faithful, the poor, the needy. We should not pretend to be intelligent enough to understand why God the father sent his only Son Jesus Christ to save us. Of course washing of feet is only symbolic, unlike the transubstantiation taking place at a Mass, where the presence is real. . I don’t think there may be anything wrong in what the Pope has done in washing the feet of girls. After all he has to receive attention of the secular media to profess faith to them. But in this process the faithful should not be confused. Let us pray for the Pope as he himself has desired it. Further we should not loose track of the Catholic faith and tradition in the pursuit of appeasing the secular media.

 

[McCall1981]

What do you mean exactly by St Francis embodiying orthodoxy? I am asking to try and understand your fears and see if we can deal with them one by one.
I am argentinean,so I´ve seen our Pope in action for years,and he has been as catholic as you would want the best catholic to be. We are not used to such divisions down there in this sense,there is no time… there is much poverty and he needed every available hand… He has done nothing to make anybody tremble or fear ,but the corrupt,nos us his Church. Peace.Ask if I can help…

Thanks, thats good to hear from someone who knows him a lot better than I do. I guess by orthodoxy, I just mean adhering to and defending Church teachings on faith and morals. I’ve researched Francis a bit and he has said some encouraging things in the past, but for me (and think some others here) we have very little to go on about him but a couple of quotes and homilies (other than the past couple of weeks).

 

[McCall1981]

Yes, yes, yes. EXACTLY what I think. I am perfectly willing to wait; it hasn’t been THAT long. . .but the media just harps and harps on the ‘one note’ social-justice and tries to imply that Pope Francis’ own personal (and Jesuit) sensitivities are ONLY related to social justice and that previous Popes were not, and that ANYBODY who questions not Pope Francis per se, but the media interpretations thereof, are automatically ‘anti-social justice’ and ‘pomp loving, hateful, greedy swine’.

Its absolutely true that the media makes this problem worse, and I do try to keep in mind that Pope Francis cant control the way the media presents him. Im trying to wait patiently too, but its tough and very nerve wracking.

 

[agnes_therese]

Its absolutely true that the media makes this problem worse, and I do try to keep in mind that Pope Francis cant control the way the media presents him. Im trying to wait patiently too, but its tough and very nerve wracking.

My nerves aren’t wracked at all. But that’s because I choose to trust my Pope.

 

[curlycool89]

To those who are struggling with this.

You need to have you faith and trust in God. Trust that God will keep His church where He wants it because He has promised to. While it is good when we can also see a pope whom we believe is headed in the right direction, it is not necessary for us, because ultimately our faith is in God and His promises to His Church.

This.

For those who may be struggling, pray for Faith and Hope. Heck, make an Act of Faith and an Act of Hope, everyday if you have to. And be open to the graces of Faith and Hope that ultimately come from God.

If you don’t have Faith and/or Hope, then the rest really becomes meaningless, or it becomes all about “I think, I want, I believe, I, I, I”.

Here’s the other thing that people need to understand: In the end it really doesn’t matter what I think. The Fullness of Truth Objectively subsists in the Catholic Church, and whether or not you choose to believe it is, frankly, irrelevant. Jesus asks us to follow Him, not peer-review what goes on.

The real danger of what happened in the Modern period is what’s called the “inward turn of modernity”. This is the enduring legacy of Descartes: that everything is referenced back to the “I” and that I become the final arbitrator of what is truth. This is what leads to Protestant ideas: the idea that I need to be able to fully understand something before it is confirmed as truth, and that it stands as nothing until I say so.

How many threads have we seen in this forum that, at their essence, say something like “I can’t reconcile with <some-pre-VII-document/practice/tradition>”. Frankly speaking, such questions are ultimately not valid. If you have Faith and Hope (which have their ultimate source in God), then you know that that is not even a question, because we know that God is not a deceiver nor a trickster. To presume that I have to be able to reconcile or understand all these things inverts the pyramid and puts me at the top as if I were a shareholder demanding an explanation of a company management (the Curia) or CEO (the Pope), which is not how the Church operates nor how it ought to operate (and Thank God for that).

And that is ultimately the goal of the Evil One, to try and get you to put you at the centre. To try and get you to be judge. And he really doesn’t have to work all that hard, because as the old saying goes, “pride goes before the fall”. All he really has to do is whisper “What do you think of this?”, and as soon as you answer “I think” or “in my opinion” then you are already caught in the trap that is the Supremacy of the Individual.

You know what I realized while writing this? Protestantism is essentially (and ironically) work-based. It’s all about their ability to keep their church doctrinally pure, and when they believe it’s not happening then its their job to go and break off. No Hope in God’s grace or protection, but only in themselves as guardians and watchman and final arbitrators.

The fact is, there IS a law which has been defined, by the Vatican, for centuries, as ‘men’, with the reason given that the footwashing represents Christ and HIS DISCIPLES (specifically because the number was 12, the relevant gospel passages, etc.)

Actually, Jimmy Akin (who works for this here website still I believe), did his own analysis of the rubrics (I think someone may have posted the link earlier, but here it is again), and came out with these points:

There are several things to note here:

1. The text does speak of “men” having their feet washed. The Latin term that is used in the original (viri) indicates adult males specifically.
2. This rite is optional; it is done “where a pastoral reason suggests it.”
3. There is no specific number of men specified. It does not say twelve men are to have their feet washed. How many is a decision open to the celebrating priest.
4. Although I have omitted the antiphons for reasons of space, none of them speak of the “apostles.” They either use the more generic term “disciples” or they do not mention the disciples at all but rather Jesus’ example for us or his commandment to love one another.

So many of the ideas we have of the foot-washing (like the requirement for 12) seem to come from even-lower-case “t” tradition, or maybe the same kind of “pious-tradition” that (wrongly) taught people it was irreverent for anyone but a priest to touch the blessed sacrament. We need to distinguish between what is actually taught and what may just be what we were told in a long game of telephone.

 

[shelby_sun]

And here I always thought that part of being Catholic was recognizing the authority of the Pope. There seem to be a lot of people here who suddenly – specifically, just since the election of Pope Francis – think that’ s not the case.

That may be true, but the Jesuits focus first on Jesus before they do the pope and his authority. That does not mean they do not respect the pope, they try to live according to how they believe Jesus would live today, so Pope Francis must believe that if Christ were on earth today he would have included women and non-catholic when washing the feet.