Pope Francis washes feet

[McCall1981]

Those who loved Pope Benedict need to ask themselves, if had done what Pope Francis did would, you have been so critical?

Honestly, no, I would not be so critical or anxious if Benedict had done the same thing. I had/have absolute faith that Benedict is an orthodox Pope, so if he had done something like this I would still feel totally secure with him. Without that background knowledge of orthodoxy its much more difficult to trust.

 

[ringil]

Honestly, no, I would not be so critical or anxious if Benedict had done the same thing. I had/have absolute faith that Benedict is an orthodox Pope, so if he had done something like this I would still feel totally secure with him. Without that background knowledge of orthodoxy its much more difficult to trust.

The Pope IS orthodoxy.

When one thinks in a way other than this one begins to fall into the wrong hands. As layman, how dare we question the Holy Father.

 

[PJM]

=mccall1981;10557478]i do hope that the liturgy etc is left alone, but for me the liturgy and small t traditions fall in the “i may not like it, but the pope can do what he wants” catagory. He may have a different pontifical “style”, but thats something that is ultimately ok.

What i worry about are the big t traditions. Francis certainly has not touched these yet, but the fear is that he will. I appreciate the vatican’s explanation that the foot washing is intended to be seen in light of “service”, not apostolic annointing, because then at least technically this was not a move towards women priests. But they know as well as we do that this is exactly how many people will (often purposely) choose to take it.

What it comes down to for me is this. Generally speaking, i think the church is too divided between “liberals” who serve the poor but dont hold to orthodoxy, and “conservatives” who hold to orthodoxy but are not involved enough socially (i know im making sweeping generalizations here, but you know what i mean). My hope for pope francis is that he will be like saint francis, who for me embodies the best of both of those worlds, passion for serving others and orthodoxy.

If pope francis could do this, he could help to heal the church within, and be a very effective evangelizer out in the world. The problem for me is that so far i feel like we’ve only seen one side, the social service side. Im hoping with all my heart that the orthodox side will come too (and certainly it still could, im trying very hard to stay hopful). But to this point, in my opinion we havent seen it, so i have strong fear of whether we will. Believe me, i would love nothing more than to see that my fears were wholly unfounded.

not to worry

women priest will not happen because neither the pope nor the
magisterium have the authority and power to change a sacrament.

 

[McCall1981]

This thread, and other ones like it, have been very informative to me. It seems that it kind of comes down to the fact that some people have the belief that Church doctrine is inherently “safe”, that it is protected by God, so any issue of what the Pope wears, whether he washes feet etc doesn’t ultimately pose a threat, so theres no point in worrying about it (and that makes perfect sense if you do indeed believe doctrine is inherently safe).

Some others, myself included, seem to feel that doctrine, at least potentially, COULD come under threat at some point. If you believe this, it makes sense to be concerned about “small” things like the foot washing issue because it could possibly lead to bigger things later (I really dont think most trads are upset about the foot washing in itself, thèyre upset over what it COULD mean later, at least in their own minds).

I never really thought about it before, but I think it does come down to that central idea of whether you believe the Church/Church doctrine is ultimately safe or not.

 

[McCall1981]

…neither the pope nor the
magisterium have the authority and power to change a sacrament.

Thanks, this is exactly what I meant in my post above. Youre saying doctrine is "safe " because it really CANNOT be changed (I’d love to agree), but I and a few others are more of the mind that we HOPE it wont be changed (and thus our worry about the “little” things like foot washing).

 

[ringil]

This thread, and other ones like it, have been very informative to me. It seems that it kind of comes down to the fact that some people have the belief that Church doctrine is inherently “safe”, that it is protected by God, so any issue of what the Pope wears, whether he washes feet etc doesn’t ultimately pose a threat, so theres no point in worrying about it (and that makes perfect sense if you do indeed believe doctrine is inherently safe).

Some others, myself included, seem to feel that doctrine, at least potentially, COULD come under threat at some point. If you believe this, it makes sense to be concerned about “small” things like the foot washing issue because it could possibly lead to bigger things later (I really dont think most trads are upset about the foot washing in itself, thèyre upset over what it COULD mean later, at least in their own minds).

I never really thought about it before, but I think it does come down to that central idea of whether you believe the Church/Church doctrine is ultimately safe or not.

It is doctrine that the doctrine is sage. You state you are Catholic thus you must believe that Doctrine is safe.

 

[shelby_sun]

Honestly, no, I would not be so critical or anxious if Benedict had done the same thing. I had/have absolute faith that Benedict is an orthodox Pope, so if he had done something like this I would still feel totally secure with him. Without that background knowledge of orthodoxy its much more difficult to trust.

That is honest. Just give Pope Francis some time and put your faith in God.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Thanks, this is exactly what I meant in my post above. Youre saying doctrine is "safe " because it really CANNOT be changed (I’d love to agree), but I and a few others are more of the mind that we HOPE it wont be changed (and thus our worry about the “little” things like foot washing).

This is where "the gates of hell will not prevail"and the Pope being protected from teaching error come in. The doctrine IS safe because Christ promised it would be.

On a more earthly note, if Pope Francis were inclined to do wacky things, he had ample opportunity in the past. He guided the Jesuits in Argentina through the whole Liberation Theology thing without diving into that pit. He stood firm against the secular government moving toward abortion and same sex “marriage”. He has been tested on those issues and many others, do you really think he’s going to going off the deep end now??

Another poster (on this thread or one like it) encouraged someone to start saying an Act of Faith and Hope. We have been reciting the Acts of Faith, Hope, and Charity every night during this Year of Faith. I am sure it has helped us and I am sure it will help you too.

 

[Michaeljc4]

We were told that Pope Benedict was “God’s choice,” right? That the Holy Spirit sent us a traditionalist, a theologian, and a man who wanted to restore some of the pre-Vatican II elements of the faith that had gone by the wayside over the past few decades. Fair enough.

Now, God has sent us a man with the mind of a Jesuit and the heart of a Franciscan. Jesus ignored a lot of rubrics, too, in his time (not that they had rubrics, but you take my meaning).

edited in the name of charity] Wash those feet, Francis! Our Lord ate with prostitutes, scandalizing the Pharisees of his day, too. Way to lead by example.

Happy Easter, everyone! He has risen! He has truly risen! And: he’s cleaning the toes of a young Muslim. LOL LOVE IT!

 

[McCall1981]

I admit, I am enjoying watching the more orthodox among us squirm. Wash those feet, Francis!

Yet somehow I dont think Jesus would say this.

 

[Michaeljc4]

You are actually right. I changed it. Good point.

 

[McCall1981]

You are actually right. I changed it. Good point.

Thank you, thats very considerate of you

 

[Michaeljc4]

Saw this on a greeting card once, and never forgot it:

“Saying I’m sorry doesn’t come easily to me. Unfortunately, being stupid does.”

 

[curlycool89]

This thread, and other ones like it, have been very informative to me. It seems that it kind of comes down to the fact that some people have the belief that Church doctrine is inherently “safe”, that it is protected by God, so any issue of what the Pope wears, whether he washes feet etc doesn’t ultimately pose a threat, so theres no point in worrying about it (and that makes perfect sense if you do indeed believe doctrine is inherently safe).

Some others, myself included, seem to feel that doctrine, at least potentially, COULD come under threat at some point. If you believe this, it makes sense to be concerned about “small” things like the foot washing issue because it could possibly lead to bigger things later (I really dont think most trads are upset about the foot washing in itself, thèyre upset over what it COULD mean later, at least in their own minds).

I never really thought about it before, but I think it does come down to that central idea of whether you believe the Church/Church doctrine is ultimately safe or not.

Ultimately, yes. But there’s a greater depth to the question.

The side that feels safe know so because that is part of what it means to be Catholic. Christ promised Peter that the gates of Hell would never prevail, and Jesus doesn’t lie. The Catholic Church is not just another Christian denomination, see, it is the Pilgrim Church of God on earth. And God never abandons His covenant.

You have to trust. I know, easy to say, harder to do. Well, the next part is harder: There’s nothing you can do, and that’s because the Holy Spirit is in command. You mine as well worry about whether a meteor is going to hit the earth or when the Big One [earthquake] is going to hit Vancouver Island, because you have just as much control there. For control freaks (and I still point to myself here) this freaks you out because it’s terrifying not being in control.

That’s what relationship with God is, handing the controls over to God. You just say “Lord, what do you want me to do”, and you do it. Again it’s frightening, but it is immensely freeing. I don’t have to worry about such things because God’s got my back. God’s not going to lead me astray because He’s God, my Father, and the Father knows best and wants the best for me. And because we can be thick headed, He provided for us the Church, to guide us to salvation and provide for us examples (living and dead) of just how to do that.

And we can put all of our trust in Jesus Christ because he showed us the way of obedience to the Father, even to the point of dying on a cross (which we read yesterday). And tonight/tomorrow, we celebrate Easter, His resurrection, His triumph over death itself.

 

[McCall1981]

Ultimately, yes. But there’s a greater depth to the question.

The side that feels safe know so because that is part of what it means to be Catholic. Christ promised Peter that the gates of Hell would never prevail, and Jesus doesn’t lie. The Catholic Church is not just another Christian denomination, see, it is the Pilgrim Church of God on earth. And God never abandons His covenant.

You have to trust. I know, easy to say, harder to do. Well, the next part is harder: There’s nothing you can do, and that’s because the Holy Spirit is in command. You mine as well worry about whether a meteor is going to hit the earth or when the Big One [earthquake] is going to hit Vancouver Island, because you have just as much control there. For control freaks (and I still point to myself here) this freaks you out because it’s terrifying not being in control.

That’s what relationship with God is, handing the controls over to God. You just say “Lord, what do you want me to do”, and you do it. Again it’s frightening, but it is immensely freeing. I don’t have to worry about such things because God’s got my back. God’s not going to lead me astray because He’s God, my Father, and the Father knows best and wants the best for me. And because we can be thick headed, He provided for us the Church, to guide us to salvation and provide for us examples (living and dead) of just how to do that.

And we can put all of our trust in Jesus Christ because he showed us the way of obedience to the Father, even to the point of dying on a cross (which we read yesterday). And tonight/tomorrow, we celebrate Easter, His resurrection, His triumph over death itself.

Very well said. This is definitely one of the hardest things for me personally for me to do.

 

[graciew]

Thanks, thats good to hear from someone who knows him a lot better than I do. I guess by orthodoxy, I just mean adhering to and defending Church teachings on faith and morals. I’ve researched Francis a bit and he has said some encouraging things in the past, but for me (and think some others here) we have very little to go on about him but a couple of quotes and homilies (other than the past couple of weeks).

Ok,here is all I gladly share about our dear Bergoglio,as we called him,our dear Pope Francis now.
First,that we the people do not have such marked divisions down there,does not mean that of course we know about them,and the clergy knows tons.We problably do not notice them(liberals,orthodoxy,etc etc) cause nothing has really chaged since the time of my grandparents in terms of “content” to put in somehow. Of couse,as you can see here,Masses can be more or less formal,guitars, or not,but basically when I came to US I did not notice the slightest difference.
South America has much more poverty,need of hands,legs,and hearts in action to help out.Nothing you do not do here but more. So in this sense,not even I feel comfortable wearing anything expensive,when my brother next to me,can´t eat. And honestly,we can´t afford it. We simplify and we have less.This may also explain some of Pope´s simple ways,apart from the fact that priests vow poverty(excuse if some words in English are not so correct,)
The Church in Argentina(not the governemnt…) is traditional in the sense of no abortion,no gay marriage,and all this kind of decision. And Bergoglio is no exception(sorry,I need to change the way we lovingly call him).
He has always been very couragous.He has always spoken out if there is corruption,openly to show any misery any of us would denounce as corrupt.to do with the people,his Church,the forgotten.What Jesus did.
Now about the little details,and sorry,little for me,if you wear sth on your head,if you do not,if white shoes,balck shoes,at least it has always been the same rule:decent and austere. Showing off is an insult to the poor,and not only catholics see it this way,people in general have this feeling,cause it hurts the ones that are suffering. So do not expect our Pope to be who he has never never been,in every sense.
We love him,all the good people love him down there.He has been a rock and we will miss him dearly…
Have I brought some peace,do you need any other details? Pleasea ask,I hate to see somebody suffer when you will probably be very grateful to this Pope,as we all have been to his predecessors.
Peace

 

[CatholicsRule]

I think this whole thing is being blown out of proportion. The question to ask is “What would Jesus do?” I’m sure He would have not left out anybody!:bible1:

 

[ProVobis]

not to worry

women priest will not happen because neither the pope nor the
magisterium have the authority and power to change a sacrament.

What about deaconesses, though?

 

[dixieagle]

Honestly, no, I would not be so critical or anxious if Benedict had done the same thing. I had/have absolute faith that Benedict is an orthodox Pope, so if he had done something like this I would still feel totally secure with him. Without that background knowledge of orthodoxy its much more difficult to trust.

Do you understand that it is simply not possible for a Pope not to be orthodox? Though any Pope is human and a sinner like all of us, he is protected from error when he teaches about matters of faith and morals.

If you understand that, then you should be at peace.

 

[graciew]

Thanks, thats good to hear from someone who knows him a lot better than I do. I guess by orthodoxy, I just mean adhering to and defending Church teachings on faith and morals. I’ve researched Francis a bit and he has said some encouraging things in the past, but for me (and think some others here) we have very little to go on about him but a couple of quotes and homilies (other than the past couple of weeks).

I have witten to you very informally,just to kind of show the everyday of our place ,which is his.,.The Church is the Church everywhere on earth. My intention was to show you,that the everyday was simple and normal(if it claryfies…).For you not to imagine anything wild …