Pope Francis way too conservative for the german part of the Church

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I wish there would be a little more distinguishing between “The German Church” and "the German church-goer’.

I know here in the US I hear “We are Church” (we are also apparently adjective-phobes) and so people think of the bishops and priests as “the German Church” but I’m sure that, just as here in the US, there are many German Catholics who are living lives of quiet conformity to the Universal Church and just letting the craziness ‘wash over’ and hoping it will go away. . .or voting with their feet and finding an SSPX or even watching ETWN or reading the Mass prayers at home if it is a point that their Masses have tipped over from illicit to invalid. . .

But please, “The German Church Hierarchy” or “Leaders”, but let’s not throw away a few million German Catholics out with the bathwater.

“The American Church” is not all the American Catholics within it. The Catholic Church in America is not a one-size-fits-all. I don’t think the Catholic Church in Germany is a one-size-fits-all either.
 
It would be interesting to know how many German Catholics that actually attend mass agree with their bishops on their agenda. The few that still attend mass, anyway. Mass attendance was estimated at less than 10% of the number that are registered Catholics that pay the Church Tax in Germany.

In any event, with or against the will of these German Catholics, the German bishops are essentially of one mind, and there appears to be almost no diversity of thought within the German hierarchy. They are determined to break with the Church on matters of sexual morality, and they apparently believe that Pope Francis is subtly giving them the green light to make these changes. Ironically, the couple of remaining orthodox German bishops introduced a proposal to change their upcoming synod to bring it more in line with the vision that Pope Francis set out for them in his letter from awhile ago. It was defeated 21-3 in a vote by the bishops.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...ority-of-evangelization-in-synodal-path-84978

And the lay Catholics who will actually get representation at their synod are not orthodox Catholics by any means.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...e-central-committee-of-german-catholics-51105

I would bet my house that there will be blatantly heretical proposals that come out of this synod. Will Rome intervene? It’s not guaranteed. Pope Francis let that proposal on intercommunion for Protestant spouses of Catholics go through, which basically allows Protestants to receive communion for no good reason. If the German synod decides they will start blessing gay marriages, will Pope Francis finally put his foot down? If he doesn’t, what messages does this send to the rest of the Church?
 
tseleehw said:
They are determined to break with the Church on matters of sexual morality
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What a hill to go and die on. At least others who have followed this path before them staked their souls on big Gospel issues (who Christ is, how one is justified, etc.). This being the ultimate priority of a group of clergy says a lot. They have…issues…
 
tseleehw said:
In any event, with or against the will of these German Catholics, the German bishops are essentially of one mind, and there appears to be almost no diversity of thought within the German hierarchy. They are determined to break with the Church on matters of sexual morality, and they apparently believe that Pope Francis is subtly giving them the green light to make these changes. Ironically, the couple of remaining orthodox German bishops introduced a proposal to change their upcoming synod to bring it more in line with the vision that Pope Francis set out for them in his letter from awhile ago. It was defeated 21-3 in a vote by the bishops.
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I believe you are right. Do the math based on who will receive votes at this German synod; there is no way some of the controversial proposals will not pass.

But always remember, it’s the rigid traditionalist Catholics who are headed towards schism. [/sarcasm]
 
If, as some have suggested that Cardinal Burke was demoted for his outspoken defense of Catholic tradition and perceived criticism of the Pope. Then why in the world wouldn’t these German bishops be reeled in even more vigorously for the unorthodox things that they’re pushing, and defying the Pope’s warning to the German bishops that they must remain in step with the whole Church in the letter he sent them? Who’s the greater threat to the Faith here???
 
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Guys, I don’t want to spoil the party but as there is much nonsense written about the Pope, there must be about C. Burke and about the German Bishops.
For starters, the minute C Burke was “ demoted “ , he had in fact been sent to Guam to this difficult case due to his expertise, and he responded obediently immediately. Was this news here? No… too normal and standard to be news.
And one more thing, it isn t about voting because this isn t a democracy, there is a hierarchy and the Pope has the final word.
I know fodder for trouble is interesting news, but news isn t always interesting but fodder for division.
Peace be with you… with us all.
The sun will come out tomorrow anyway.
 
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This is definitely a positive step. But it’s not over yet. Going back to the whole episode over Protestant spouses receiving communion from last year, the exact same thing happened at first. The German bishops put out a document authorizing that the Eucharist be given to Protestant spouses of Catholics. The CDF stepped in and put a stop to it. Cardinal Marx then appealed directly to Pope Francis. Then Marx got his way. We’ll see what happens this time. The German bishops haven’t acknowledged this in any way yet that I have seen (as the article implies, it’s possible Marx withheld the letter from the other bishops), so we’ll have to wait to see what their response is. If they don’t get what they want you can be sure they won’t obey without kicking and screaming and throwing a tantrum (remember his “we are not a subsidiary of Rome” comments after the first family synod in 2014 when they realized the bishops weren’t going to outright authorize communion for divorced and remarried Catholics).

At the very least, it is good that some individuals in the Curia are wise to what the Germans are up to. The real question is if they will be overruled or not. This circus will probably continue for awhile longer before it’s resolved.
 
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So the German bishops have responded saying that the Vatican’s concerns are basically obsolete since they were based on older version of the document…but the new version that they claim has addressed the Vatican’s concerns has basically no changes of substance.

www.ncregister.com

German Bishops Respond to Vatican Critique, but Documents Show Ongoing Disagreement

The conference says that detailed criticisms from the Holy See concerned older draft documents and did not take into account changes.
www.ncregister.com www.ncregister.com

What a dumpster fire this whole charade is.
 
They’re just posturing for time now. They had to respond quickly or it would look like they’re conceding defeat. But they know they didn’t really address the Vatican’s concerns and need extra time to figure out what their plan is. So they can use this “new draft” keep the congregation busy for another week or two so they can come up with another scheme to push their agenda through.
 
In the first year or two of Francis’ pontificate it seemed to be taken for granted, in Rome and around the world, that his successor was already known – namely Cardinal Reinhard Marx, the president of the German Bishops’ Conference (DBK) and, at the time, also the president of Comece, the Commission of the Bishops’ Conferences of the European Community. Is Cardinal Marx still tipped as the certain winner of the next conclave? If he is, it looks as though the way the German Church is going today is the way we will all be going tomorrow …
 
He will be in serious contention, for sure. I think there is some hope that even the current slate of Francis-appointed Cardinals would find him too extreme in his views, but will probably attract enough votes to make him a contender. This is one consequence, intended or unintended, of Pope Francis appointing Cardinals who are virtual unknown bishops from the corners of the world. The votes are likely going to be concentrated on the Cardinals who are more famous or well connected, of which Marx is one. And he is young enough that he will almost certainly be in the next conclave.

But yes, this whole situation is probably a preview of what a hypothetical Marx pontificate would be like, and it would probably be disastrous for the whole Church.
 
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Simply put, I’m happy Pope Francis stood up to the Germans. I’m not reading any more into it than that.
 
Weserthy said:
He will be in serious contention, for sure. I think there is some hope that even the current slate of Francis-appointed Cardinals would find him too extreme in his views, but will probably attract enough votes to make him a contender. This is one consequence, intended or unintended, of Pope Francis appointing Cardinals who are virtual unknown bishops from the corners of the world.
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Honestly, I think Cardinal Marx is doing himself no favors if he really wants to be Pope. Cardinals form all corners of the world are going to come from generally conservative to moderate backgrounds and will not have much in common with Cardinal Marx and his beliefs. These Cardinals from all corners of the earth will likely have little sympathy with somebody who wants to change basic Catholic views on morality.
 
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