Pope Gregory The Great Was Wrong About Mary Magdalene

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When we celebrated the feast day of Mary Magdalene last week, the priest spoke about Pope Gregory The Great’s incorrect assertion that Mary Magdalene was the sister of Martha and Lazarus (how could Mary of Magdala suddenly become a part of a family from Bethany?), the unnamed sinner in Luke, and made her living as a prostitute. This (especially the last part) was declared untrue in 1969 by Paul VI.

How can Papal Infallibility be a fact when the Pope made a statement (and this one is about the faith so it is covered under the Infallibility doctrine) which was so wrong as to paint an incorrect picture of one of the Church’s pre-eminent women, a falsehood which was maintained for over 1400 years, misleading generations upon generations of Christians about the true life of the first person to see the resurrected Jesus?

This kind of stuff is why non-Catholics slam the Church for obedience to the Pope, a man.
 
How can Papal Infallibility be a fact when the Pope made a statement (and this one is about the faith so it is covered under the Infallibility doctrine)

This kind of stuff is why non-Catholics slam the Church for obedience to the Pope, a man.
It’s because infallibility doesn’t cover Gregory’s statement, and because people tend to misunderstand infallibility in various and significant ways… 😉

Infallibility (as you mentioned) only covers statements about faith and morals – but it doesn’t mean that everything that a Pope utters in the realm of faith and morals is infallible. Rather, the context of the statement is critical to the determination of what is to be considered infallible and what is not.

For example, Pope Benedict wrote a number of books “on faith and morals” while he was pope. However, none of these fall under ‘infallibility’, since they were his own thoughts, and were not an exercise of magisterial teaching.

Similarly, nothing that a pope says during a homily is a new exercise of infallibility. (He might relate something that had previously been taught infallibly, but no new doctrine comes from a homily.)

This is where the confusion, I think, ensues: Gregory’s comments on Mary Magdalene are from a famous homily that he preached. So, although they were the words of the pope, they are not infallible teaching. They were influential – so much so that his mistake stayed alive as a meme in the Church for a long time! – but they weren’t an exercise of the magisterium of the Church.
 
Thank you Gorgias.

I just wish that the Pope, given his stature as influential to billions of Christians, wouldn’t proclaim something as truth (in a homily or whatever) if it might not be, because generations of Catholics took what he said in that homily and as time went on (you have heard of the children’s game “telephone” I’m sure), his words morphed into people teaching that “when Jesus rose from the dead, the first person he sought out was a whore.” Now, this could mean that Jesus can forgive any conceivable sin, or it could mean something else not so nice to think about.
 
Thank you Gorgias.
… his words morphed into people teaching that “when Jesus rose from the dead, the first person he sought out was a whore.” Now, this could mean that Jesus can forgive any conceivable sin, or it could mean something else not so nice to think about.
She was a repentant sinner and a Holy Saint of the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Even if hoards of people did take his words to heart…it has little or no impact on our salvation.
It’s simply a point of discussion, not a faith breaker.
 
How can Papal Infallibility be a fact when the Pope made a statement (and this one is about the faith so it is covered under the Infallibility doctrine)
No. Every uttering of the Pope is NOT an exercise in the charism of infallibility. I would suggest you study more about what the Church teaches regarding infallibility of the Magesterium and the Pope, because that isn’t it.
which was so wrong as to paint an incorrect picture of one of the Church’s pre-eminent women, a falsehood which was maintained for over 1400 years, misleading generations upon generations of Christians about the true life of the first person to see the resurrected Jesus?
Not exactly “wrong” or “incorrect”. More accurately, one of several possible explanations.

newadvent.org/cathen/09761a.htm

and what did Gregory **actually **say? She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary, *we believe to be *the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark.
This kind of stuff is why non-Catholics slam the Church for obedience to the Pope, a man.
Yes, they “slam” the Church because they are ignorant of what she does and does not teach.
 
Even if hoards of people did take his words to heart…it has little or no impact on our salvation.
It’s simply a point of discussion, not a faith breaker.
But it’s not only that - his views were essentially codified in the prayers of the faithful for the Lauds and Vespers for the feast of St. Mary Magdalene.

Regardless, though, it’s not hard to see why Pope Gregory confused the women. From an early time in the Church, for some reason or another, St. Mary Magdalene was identified with every single “sinful woman” in the Gospels. Part of this has to do with the fact that, in Luke’s gospel, she’s introduced immediately after Jesus forgives the woman caught in adultery. So, because of this, she’s identified with the wealthy woman who breaks a jar of alabaster oil over Jesus’s head, because in Luke’s Gospel, the woman poured the oil over Jesus’s feet instead, in a show of displaying sorrow for her sins.
As one of the Gospels (I believe the Gospel according to John), notes that it was Mary, sister of Martha and Lazarus, who did this, Mary Magdalene ended up being identified with her, as well.
 
But it’s not only that - his views were essentially codified in the prayers of the faithful for the Lauds and Vespers for the feast of St. Mary Magdalene.

Regardless, though, it’s not hard to see why Pope Gregory confused the women. From an early time in the Church, for some reason or another, St. Mary Magdalene was identified with every single “sinful woman” in the Gospels. Part of this has to do with the fact that, in Luke’s gospel, she’s introduced immediately after Jesus forgives the woman caught in adultery. So, because of this, she’s identified with the wealthy woman who breaks a jar of alabaster oil over Jesus’s head, because in Luke’s Gospel, the woman poured the oil over Jesus’s feet instead, in a show of displaying sorrow for her sins.
As one of the Gospels (I believe the Gospel according to John), notes that it was Mary, sister of Martha and Lazarus, who did this, Mary Magdalene ended up being identified with her, as well.
Again, is this a point of salvation, or a beautiful story of service and love?
My daughter chose her as a Confirmation Patron because of her example.
Not because of anything else. People have always been arguing about Mary Magdalene. 🤷
Seems the various “Mary’s” in the Bible confound people.
I’m not sure why. :hmmm:
 
Not exactly “wrong” or “incorrect”. More accurately, one of several possible explanations.

newadvent.org/cathen/09761a.htm

and what did Gregory **actually **say? She whom Luke calls the sinful woman, whom John calls Mary, *we believe to be *the Mary from whom seven devils were ejected according to Mark.
Ditto all points in here.
 
What I was told in RCIA is that infallibility only applies when a Pope is speaking “ex cathedra” (from the chair) and that this has only happened 2 times in the entire history of the Church. Once was on the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and the other was on the Assumption of Mary.
 
What I was told in RCIA is that infallibility only applies when a Pope is speaking “ex cathedra” (from the chair) and that this has only happened 2 times in the entire history of the Church. Once was on the Immaculate Conception of Mary, and the other was on the Assumption of Mary.
Well you were told incorrectly. . .or more accurately, ‘incompletely’. The charism of infallibility is indeed exercised ‘ex cathedra’ and this did happen with the Immaculate Conception, and with the assumption.

However, those were not the 'ONLY TWO TIMES" that the Church has declared an ‘infallible teaching’.

The Catechism makes this clear.
889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417 890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
However, don’t fault your RCIA people. It’s a complicated understanding and even faithful and well-educated Catholics can sometimes not get something ‘quite right’. I’m sure that probably that was the understanding they had, and/or they might have felt giving a true, if incomplete, picture would help people with ‘doubts’ or worries (that kind of ‘helpfulness’ being incredibly widespread in the last few decades of ‘empathy’ and helping to keep catechesis in the US in a typically abysmal state.)
 
Again, is this a point of salvation, or a beautiful story of service and love?
My daughter chose her as a Confirmation Patron because of her example.
Not because of anything else. People have always been arguing about Mary Magdalene. 🤷
Seems the various “Mary’s” in the Bible confound people.
I’m not sure why. :hmmm:
There’s a long history of people (not just Popes, though Gregory probably confounded the issue) confusing lots of Marys (Maries?). Origen (c. 185-254AD) and St John Chrysostom (317-407), who both lived generations before Gregory, both explicitly say that Mary Magdalene was “unsuitable” as a first witness to the Resurrection, so part of the false legend about her was presumably around even by then. There’s also a long history of

Interestingly, a Renaissance-era Biblical scholar, Jacques Lefévre d’Etaples, published a treatise on her in 1517, critiquing the then-common view of her as a reformed prostitute…for his trouble, he was censured, expelled from his university (La Sorbonne), and his work was added to the Vatican’s list of prohibited books. So I’d not blame Pope Gregory alone!

Pope Gregory, working with then-current historical assumptions, may have got it wrong (and many after him). She wasn’t a prostitute (she was a “woman of means” if you read Luke 8 and a woman need not be a prostitute to have money!).

But to digress a little bit, I would also be very wary of over-deconstructing her prostitute-legend (partly because she has long been a very important saint for prostitutes and repentant sinners in general). Her legend gave rise to (often, infamously, rather misguided) efforts to help prostitutes. And nor should we seek a theological respectability for her by giving her a more “palatable” story.

We also must not ignore the fact that a prostitute or otherwise ‘fallen’ woman absolutely could have been a prominent figure, even a leader, in Jesus’ movement. Of the “many others” we read about in the first verses of Luke 8 (when we first read of Mary Magdalene), were some of them actually prostitutes? I imagine, very probably yes. Jesus was nice to everyone, loved and loves everyone. We can but hope that so too were the women in His movement which became our Church, which was a movement of inclusiveness and equality.

but, Clare, you are absolutely right. I don’t think it matters what the “facts” of Mary Magdalene are. Her story is a beautiful one.

What I intended to be a five-line response has become a little essay, so I beg anyone who reads this indulge me a little more…

A few months I read a book called The Female Face of God at Auschwitz by Melissa Raphael. She suggests, that rather than thinking about an omnipotent but absent God (“why did He allow such awful things?”), we instead see the face of God in the women who cared for the children, each other, and the dying;

Building on what Clare says about her story - I like to think of Mary Magdalene at the foot of the Cross, and again at the tomb, as the face of God. And we shouldn’t forget all the other women too whom Jesus definitely did know, and love. Because some of them, or all of them, just like all the men, were sinful or fallen and who He picked up with love.

I mean to say, regardless of the background of the historical Mary of Magdala, we could do very much worse than to emulate her, and hope too for the same love from Christ.
 
It’s because infallibility doesn’t cover Gregory’s statement, and because people tend to misunderstand infallibility in various and significant ways… 😉

Infallibility (as you mentioned) only covers statements about faith and morals – but it doesn’t mean that everything that a Pope utters in the realm of faith and morals is infallible. Rather, the context of the statement is critical to the determination of what is to be considered infallible and what is not.
If things a Pope states can easily be explained away with arguments like these that allow for back-pedalling, even when in the realm of faith and morals, what is the point of papal infallibility?
 
When we celebrated the feast day of Mary Magdalene last week, the priest spoke about Pope Gregory The Great’s incorrect assertion that Mary Magdalene was the sister of Martha and Lazarus (how could Mary of Magdala suddenly become a part of a family from Bethany?), the unnamed sinner in Luke, and made her living as a prostitute. This (especially the last part) was declared untrue in 1969 by Paul VI.

How can Papal Infallibility be a fact when the Pope made a statement (and this one is about the faith so it is covered under the Infallibility doctrine) which was so wrong as to paint an incorrect picture of one of the Church’s pre-eminent women, a falsehood which was maintained for over 1400 years, misleading generations upon generations of Christians about the true life of the first person to see the resurrected Jesus?

This kind of stuff is why non-Catholics slam the Church for obedience to the Pope, a man.
We know very little about Mary Magdalene.I believe the gospels say she was the woman whom Jesus cast SEVEN demons from.

It is definitely possible that she was the sister of Martha and Lazarus.
 
If things a Pope states can easily be explained away with arguments like these that allow for back-pedalling, even when in the realm of faith and morals, what is the point of papal infallibility?
Well basically, it’s not exactly something that anyone in their wildest imaginings could construe as being necessary for our salvation, whether or not Mary Magdalene or anyone else was a prostitute.

The historical status of a particular woman (even the woman to whom the risen Christ first appeared) from 1st-century Judea, doesn’t matter much in terms of faith, or morals. I think there are important reasons for not dismissing her out of hand as a prostitute (though we can also spend too much time sorting out the truth!), because it does all women a disservice to not bother about them too much - but the message of salvation can’t plausibly hang on issues like this.

Popes as much as anyone else, can be swept into contemporary assumptions and this is obviously what was the case with Gregory the Great on this issue (I’m sure Pope Francis could or has already been similarly influenced by modern assumptions about some issues, and that’s not a criticism - a recognition that all popes are also human beings).
 
We know very little about Mary Magdalene.I believe the gospels said she was the woman whom Jesus cast SEVEN demons from.

tI is definitely possible that she was the sister of Martha and Lazarus.
Mary Magdalene is so named because she was from the town of Magdala.

Martha, her sister Mary, and Lazarus were from the town of Bethany.

It is not realistically possible that Mary Magdalene was the sister of Martha and Lazarus for that very reason.

What we know for a fact about her is that she was at the foot of the cross when Jesus died (not even a majority of the apostles were there, though John clearly was). And we know that she was the first person to be contacted by Jesus after he rose from the grave on Easter Sunday, and although at first she thought it was a worker and asked "what have you done with my Lord, where have you taken His body?’ she then recognized Him for who He is. This was before the apostle whom Jesus loved (John) and Simon Peter had their famous race to the tomb, which John won but allowed Simon Peter to enter before him.
 
Mary Magdalene is so named because she was from the town of Magdala.

Martha, her sister Mary, and Lazarus were from the town of Bethany.

It is not realistically possible that Mary Magdalene was the sister of Martha and Lazarus for that very reason.

What we know for a fact about her is that she was at the foot of the cross when Jesus died (not even a majority of the apostles were there, though John clearly was). And we know that she was the first person to be contacted by Jesus after he rose from the grave on Easter Sunday, and although at first she thought it was a worker and asked "what have you done with my Lord, where have you taken His body?’ she then recognized Him for who He is. This was before the apostle whom Jesus loved (John) and Simon Peter had their famous race to the tomb, which John won but allowed Simon Peter to enter before him.
Gee,you think people did not relocate or move? I believe Mary Magdalene is Mary of Bethany,Anyway it is not a part of the deposit of faith as to who she actually was. She had seven demons cast out of her body and she was the first to see that Jesus had risen from the dead.
 
Well basically, it’s not exactly something that anyone in their wildest imaginings could construe as being necessary for our salvation, whether or not Mary Magdalene or anyone else was a prostitute.

The historical status of a particular woman (even the woman to whom the risen Christ first appeared) from 1st-century Judea, doesn’t matter much in terms of faith, or morals. I think there are important reasons for not dismissing her out of hand as a prostitute (though we can also spend too much time sorting out the truth!), because it does all women a disservice to not bother about them too much - but the message of salvation can’t plausibly hang on issues like this.

Popes as much as anyone else, can be swept into contemporary assumptions and this is obviously what was the case with Gregory the Great on this issue (I’m sure Pope Francis could or has already been similarly influenced by modern assumptions about some issues, and that’s not a criticism - a recognition that all popes are also human beings).
To someone like me, this leaves much doubt in my mind. If a Pope can be wrong on something so trivial, how then can I trust he wont be wrong on much more extraordinary topics?
 
To someone like me, this leaves much doubt in my mind. If a Pope can be wrong on something so trivial, how then can I trust he wont be wrong on much more extraordinary topics?
Perhaps he was right.We will not know until after we die.I for one believe that Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany are the same.
 
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