Pope in 'freedom' blast at Islam

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Pope in ‘freedom’ blast at Islam
dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=483202&in_page_id=1811

The Pope has again risked provoking the wrath of the Islamic world, by criticising its treatment of Christians.

Benedict XVI attacked Muslim nations where Christians are either persecuted or given the status of second-class citizens under the Shariah Islamic law.

He also defended the rights of Muslims to convert to Christianity, an act which warrants the death penalty in many Islamic countries.

His comments came almost exactly a year after he provoked a wave of anger among Muslims by quoting a Byzantine emperor who linked Islam to violence.

Yesterday, near Rome, the 80-year-old pontiff made a speech in “defence of religious liberty”, which, he said “is a fundamental, irrepressible, inalienable and inviolable right”.

In a clear reference to Islam, he said: “The exercise of this freedom also includes the right to change religion, which should be guaranteed not only legally, but also in daily practice.”

Addressing the problem of Islamic extremism, he added: “Terrorism is a serious problem whose perpetrators often claim to act in God’s name and harbour an inexcusable contempt for human life.”

Last September, radical British Muslims said Pope Benedict should be executed for “insulting” the Prophet Mohammed.

Throughout the Middle East and Africa, Christians were subjected to violence in retribution for his remarks.

His latest comments, however, come just days after one of the Church of England’s-senior bishops warned that Muslim leaders here must speak out in defence of the right to change faith.

The Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali, told Channel 4’s Dispatches programme of his fears for the safety of the estimated 3,000 Muslims who have converted to other faiths in this country.

A poll earlier this year of more than 1,000 young adult British Muslims found that 36 per cent believe those who convert to another faith should be punished by death.

Pope Benedict is particularly concerned about the persecution of Christians in Iraq since the invasion of 2003.

Before then, there were about 1.2million Christians in the country. But the number has dropped to below 600,000.

Poor Muslims. The Pope is picking on them again.
 
Yesterday, near Rome, the 80-year-old pontiff made a speech in “defence of religious liberty”, which, he said “is a fundamental, irrepressible, inalienable and inviolable right”.
In a clear reference to Islam, he said: “The exercise of this freedom also includes the right to change religion, which should be guaranteed not only legally, but also in daily practice.”
Hi

These are all wrong notions of the political and “coercive people" not supported by Quran/Islam/Muhammad, who in fact had to defend the peaceful oppressed people valiantly, so that everybody chooses his religion with free will, that is what is exactly meant by the words “and religion is professed only for Allah” and that “And if Allah had not repelled some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered, would surely have been destroyed”.

I give hereunder relative passages from Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah and Chapter 22: Al-Hajj.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah
[2:191] And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:192] And slay these transgressors wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worst than slaying. And fight them not in and near the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them. Such is the requital for the disbelievers.
[2:193] But if they desist, then surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is professed only for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the wrongdoers.

Chapter 22: Al-Hajj:
[22:40] Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged and Allah, indeed, has power to help them.
[22:41] Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly, only because they said, 'Our Lord is Allah.’ And if Allah had not repelled some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered, would surely have been destroyed. And Allah will, surely, help him who helps Him. Allah is, indeed, Powerful, Mighty -
[22:42] Those who, if We establish them in the earth, will observe Prayer and pay the Zakat and enjoin good and forbid evil. And with Allah rests the final issue of all affairs.

There are no verses in Quran that support general killing of people for conversion. Muhammad was truly a peaceful person so should be the Muslims if they follow him.

The subject becomes very clear when the real context is provided to verses as mentioned in the Holy Quran.

It would not be out of place here to mention that Muhammad’s relations with Catholics/orthodoxies were good, and there were no complaints against him in this regard in his life, and how could there be any such complaints when he respected Jesus, Mary and apostles of Jesus. There is not a single verse of disrespect to them in Quran to my knowledge.

So the defense of religious liberty is a thing which Muhammad/Islam/Quran held in high esteem, and should be held so even now by those who follow him/them. Anybody who speaks for these noble and charitable ideals is welcome; he may belong to any faith/denomination/religion/agnostics.
Love for all hatred for none.

Thanks
 
These are all wrong notions of the political and “coercive people" not supported by Quran/Islam/Muhammad, who in fact had to defend the peaceful oppressed people valiantly, so that everybody chooses his religion with free will, that is what is exactly meant by the words “and religion is professed only for Allah” and that “And if Allah had not repelled some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered, would surely have been destroyed”.
If it isn’t supported in the Koran, why do the militants and the general Muslim population of the areas in question support it? Have you heard anyone speak out against it?

What about when an elderly Nun was shot in the back last year in Somalia by Muslims? Did anyone in the Middle East say “That’s against the Koran!”?

I’m curious, because I have NEVER heard Muslims speak against this kind of behavior. So as far as we know in the West, these things are part of Islamic Teaching. Why? The simple fact, that we haven’t been told or shown otherwise, at least in my view.

Pace e Bene
Andrew
 
If it isn’t supported in the Koran, why do the militants and the general Muslim population of the areas in question support it? Have you heard anyone speak out against it?

What about when an elderly Nun was shot in the back last year in Somalia by Muslims? Did anyone in the Middle East say “That’s against the Koran!”?

I’m curious, because I have NEVER heard Muslims speak against this kind of behavior. So as far as we know in the West, these things are part of Islamic Teaching. Why? The simple fact, that we haven’t been told or shown otherwise, at least in my view.

Pace e Bene
Andrew
Hi

But then one would be wrong to blame Muahmmad/Quran/Islam for a thing they never did or speak of. Are they not entitled to religious freedom you speak of, and more so because they are not a party to it ?

Things should be seen in true perspective, that is my request.

Thanks
 
Oh, how dare the Holy Father denounce the widespread persecution of his own people at the hands of the Muslims when any Catholic should be more then happy to bear their neck for the Islamic sword.
 
Hi

But then one would be wrong to blame Muahmmad/Quran/Islam for a thing they never did or speak of. Are they not entitled to religious freedom you speak of, and more so because they are not a party to it ?

Things should be seen in true perspective, that is my request.

Thanks
Which “true perspective?” The one where we see the real truth? Or the perspective of the man having his head cut off, or the perspective of those traped in a buring, falling building? Or perhaps the perspective of those living in fear of their lives because they converted from islam to Christianity.

islam is not a religion of peace. muslims like to quote old passages that speak of peace, but fail to mention that any newer passages supercede the old ones, and they are not peaceful. I wish I could give you the actuall history of the writings and the order in which they were written (which would show you the actual teachings are not peaceful).

Moreover, I wish we could all live in peace. I would gladly live peacefully next to muslims, and even share my table with any one of them, if I could say that I for one second believed that they were at heart a peaceful religion. But history, and current events, and their own written word, tells us a much different story.
 
There are things I dont agree with the Vatican about…and then there are times like this that I see an article the Pontiff wrote and he hits the nail right on the head. he speaks the truth. Any Islamic “wrath” only proves his point about converting to Christianity and proving his quote that he made last year with the Byzantines.
 
Oh this pope is a great pope!
No wonder he is nicknamed God’s rottweiler!
He doesnt hide his true thoughts, and the thoughts of almost every catholic on this earth.
God bless him and keep him strong.
 
Oh, how dare the Holy Father denounce the widespread persecution of his own people at the hands of the Muslims when any Catholic should be more then happy to bear their neck for the Islamic sword.
Hi Caesar. Sorry, but is this meant to be sarcastic? Because he did the exact opposite. He didn’t denounce the persecution, he actually spoke against them.

Pax Domini,
~G
 
paarsurrey’s been shown the verses in the Koran that talk of killing.

The most known being
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

He’s not here to even discuss this, but to simply spam the threads with Islamic propaganda that doesn’t even address most issues raised.

Good work, to the Pope!👍
 
If it isn’t supported in the Koran, why do the militants and the general Muslim population of the areas in question support it? Have you heard anyone speak out against it?
Pace e Bene
Andrew
Unfortunately paarsurrey’s here to ‘teach’ us about Islam, as according to his version of it. No real discussion - it’s all just lectures.

Most Moslems recognise that Muhammed actually fought battles. These, some, are in the Koran.

That Muhammed lead armies into battle - that it’s in the Koran, shows the Koran has verses about killing people. That’s an absolute paarsurrey’s not even going to recognise.

[9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating.

Many Moslems at least recognise this much but put a spin on it that it’s all a matter of historical context. So paarsurrey’s not even in that league of honesty.
 
paarsurrey’s been shown the verses in the Koran that talk of killing.

The most known being
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

He’s not here to even discuss this, but to simply spam the threads with Islamic propaganda that doesn’t even address most issues raised.

Good work, to the Pope!👍
Hi

There is no mention in the Quranic verses quoted above of the Catholics or the Orthodoxies.

Thanks
 
There is mention of the Koranic verses containing exhortations of violence. Though I gave the verse in my previous post as 9.25 and not as properly 9.5.

Here’s several translations from different web-sites of just this one verse.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

‘Noble’ Translation
Surah At-Taubah
Ayah 5
Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=9

‘Glorious’ Translation
Surah At-Taubah
Ayah 5
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=26&bid=9

Clearly there’s verses in the Koran about killing people. Unfortunately Paarsurrey continues to state his mantra “These violent verses don’t exist”. Unfortunately that’s the only argument he does give - repeating this. Maybe if he says it long enough, it will go away. As noted earlier, most Moslems I’ve encountered actually recognise this verse exists, but give interpretations such as “That was for a limited time”, and so on. However Paarsurrey doesn’t even do that. He denies its existence, full stop.

He must have a totally different Koran from the majority of Moslems
 
I love the pope. I think that he is great. Speaking out against the violent element within Islam shows him to be a brave man. Now if we can get the world’s politicians on board, much progress will be made. I give the pople a :clapping: and another…:clapping: and then I need to tip my :tiphat: to a great pope.
 
Talking to Paarsurrey about truth - barking up the wrong tree there! 😉
Christians are being persecuted all over the world
persecution.org.au/

This site also includes secular persecutions (such as in Communist China)
Not to mention the dragging through the mud of christian values by the media. Would that be persecution? I think so.
 
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